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    posted a message on Inline Aura - display aura information inside action buttons
    Quote from Adirelle
    Sometimes, I also have the feeling that all this would be far easier handled by verbose lua configuration but I think a lot of people would really dislike it.


    I know what you mean. Maybe develop it with lua configuration only initially and see how it goes?
    Posted in: General AddOns
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    posted a message on Inline Aura - display aura information inside action buttons
    Quote from Adirelle
    I haven't much control on the ordering, since it is handled by AceConfigDialog (unless I start doing nasty hacks with table keys). In the latest version, I moved the icon to the left and one can select what he/she want to see in the list. Both options should help. I also updated most of the new option descriptions.


    I saw, thanks! I must confess this confused me a little at first, maybe swap them round so the list is on the left and the filter is on the right? However, short of fixing ace-widgets to have a custom sort, this is a neat solution.


    I like the idea too but it would make the whole configuration process quite complex, let alone the processing itself... Who told "bloat" ? :p


    Agreed it does add complexity, however the more I use inline auras the more I think it's necessary. For the configuration, is this just a case of moving the "Effect" drop-down to the top section of config pane and having different setting for each effect?
    Posted in: General AddOns
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    posted a message on Inline Aura - display aura information inside action buttons
    Quote from Adirelle

    The configuration is a big part. I intend to test a lot of changes:
    * move the configuration panel outside of Blizzard one to have more room,
    * instead of adding/removing per-spell setings, I'm thinking about listing all spells from the spell book and action bars and allowing to edit them. The idea would be to have a dropdown to select how each spell is handled, amongst : use global settings, use spell preset (when available), use user-defined settings, ignore.
    * I'm also wondering about adding a simple/advanced configuration mode. In simple configuration mode, per-spell settings would not be visible. Instead, one could chose to enable/disable groups of spells, like "crowd control", "stuns", "group (de)buffs", "dispells", "health triggers", ...

    Any thought ?



    The new spell list is very slick, I like it! Have you considered sorting it so that it goes user-defined -> pre defined -> everything else? It might make it slightly easier to navigate when there are dozens of buttons setup.

    Personally I like all my options to be embedded within the blizzard options pane, but perhaps that's because I find mods that feel the need to exceed this space tend to be too bloated :)

    One thing I'd love to have is multiple triggers per button. For example shadowbolt should have a coloured border if the "Shadow and Flame" (+5% spell damage taken) debuff is applied and it should glow if nightfall procs. Similarly, for locks with decimation, soulfire should un-dim when target health is below 25% and glow when decimation procs. I believe other classes have similar execute-like abilities that work like this.

    This looks doable, you just need one inline aura setting per spell per highlight type. What do you think?
    Posted in: General AddOns
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    posted a message on Grid2 - Layered Preferences
    Quote from Azethoth

    2) Grid2 has strong working defaults. Grid2 and its enabled plugins automatically configure themselves into a working configuration with no setup required other than maybe sizing and placing frames to your choice. The goal is a working setup using your chosen plugins, customized for your class / spec.


    I completely accept your point. If we ship with one layer we break the current Grid2 out-of-the-box settings. I'm just saying that in an ideal world we'd avoid the complexity of layers for novice users. Sadly I don't have a perfect solution.

    However it is definitely possible to ship with one layer common to all (say just health bar, debuff icon, and agro indicator). The win is that new users don't have to worry about layers, the loss is that out of the box grid2 isn't so useful.

    So is the tradeoff worth it? Well that's always going to be subjective. At what piont do you say this is adding too much complexity out-of-the-box without helping enough?
    Posted in: Grid & Grid2
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    posted a message on Grid2 - Layered Preferences
    Quote from Azethoth
    The actual lib already supports this. However I just do not know if it is something we want users to do. It is maybe ok for a math phd, but we need this to work for regular users as well.

    The bottom line is this: are there enough and appropriate layers to solve 95% of the issues. If your heal / dps layer is added between account and class I think the answer is yes.


    Cool.

    Remember at heart I'm a proponent of using 1 layer all the time, with an option - for every advanced users only - to add additional layers. I think that shipping with account->heal->paladin is a really poor idea, and account->paladin->holy is just as bad. I think it needs to be as simple as it possibly can.

    If one layer is too trivial, could we at least limit it to account-><class> out of the box?
    Posted in: Grid & Grid2
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    posted a message on Grid2 - Layered Preferences
    Quote from Azethoth
    This part is interesting in that it potentially means multiple inheritance.


    Eeek! You say that like it's a good thing :o

    I understand your point, you're saying you may wish to configure the frame settings independantly to the indicator settings. But equally I'm sure you acknowledge things could get very confusing very quickly. Layered settings are very new, and I think it's important to get the basics right first, before looking at this stuff. I actually have a much neater solution to this problem, but let's save that for another thread rather than derail this one.

    The obvious thing (in my mind) is that frame and layout also have a layer associated with them (just like indicators). Then I can configure my layers: account->heal->paladin, or account->raid leader->warlock and the frame sizes will do what I expect.


    Rather than trying to work our what the perfect layer configuration might be. What do you think of my idea of having a panel for configuring whatever layers the user wants, and what layer the current class / spec should be set to? I think this is a much stronger solution.
    Posted in: Grid & Grid2
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    posted a message on Grid2 - Layered Preferences
    Re: Layers

    I'm not quite with you. For me the difference between account->heal and account->dps is that the former takes up 30% of my screen and shows lots of info, while the latter is small and shows only range and raidebuff. That's quite a fundamental difference! I don't know if you've extended layers to cover frame / layout settings but I assume that's on your wish-list?

    The point of layers surely is that everyone will have their own view of how to arrange them. If you mandate account->class->spec, well that's the mistake wowdb profiles made.

    I kinda imagine it this way: Grid2 would have a layer settings panel where you can add layers to the layer heirarchy however you choose. On this panel you also configure what layer your current character / spec is set to. I think this will satisfy everyone. The other nice thing about this is that if I want to change my current layer I can do that without changing spec.

    Does this make sense to you?


    Re: Opacity

    Thanks for fixing dungeonrole. Feel free to propogate / modify opacity. Personally what you suggest seems like an implementation detail to me. The only win is if you wanted, say, different opacities on different raid icons (skull 0.8, cross 0.6 etc) or similar then my opacity implementation doesn't allow this - but honestly can you think of any time you'd want something like this? Still it's fine by me if you want to do the work :P
    Posted in: Grid & Grid2
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    posted a message on Grid2 - Layered Preferences
    Interesting. I understand the problem you're trying to solve. I know that with many other mods aceDB doesn't cut it, you end up making one set of settings, copying it to all your profiles then adjusting each one repeatedly.

    Now I'll confess at this stage that when I first heard of your layer idea was was very sceptical. The key concern being that layers are potentially fiendishly complex - how on earth can the configuration be managed sanely? However on refleting on what you've put in now I see that it can be made workable. And, crucially, it's no worse than the current AceDB profile nonsense [account->realm->class, I mean seriously who uses per-realm settings? and why no per-spec settings?!]

    Still, there is one really good point about AceDB Profiles - That is: If you've no idea what Profiles are - it doesn't matter! I'll bet that most users of most mods never touch the profile settings. They just adjust settings and the changes get saved. End of story.

    So - could I suggest that rather than automagically creating layers for every possible class / spec, you keep the default layers to a minimum for basic users, whilst allowing advanced users the ability to make layers however they want? Case in point, the layers currently are account->class->spec, but I'd want account->heal->Paladin and I'm sure others would want different things.

    The simplest default would just be one layer: account. The downside of this is it limits the out-of-the-box functionality since you'd have to settle on lowest common denominator settings. Still it could be done, maybe there could be a set of prefab settings that the user could choose from? Do people use out-of-the-box Grid anyhow?

    Any thoughts?
    Posted in: Grid & Grid2
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    posted a message on AceDB - Switch Profiles when User changes Spec?
    @Adirelle: Looks good. Note that you only need one extra checkbox widget, something like "switch profile with talent group". To change the settings for the 'other' group simply switch spec and then change profile. This reduces feature bloat :)

    This still leaves the problem that many authors probably won't bother to implement this, persumably because for their spec they don't need it. See Phanx's post. I'll try and tidy up what I did originally this weekend so people can compare and contrast the core vs library implementation.


    However, what I've been trying to argue is that specs are core to the game. Blizzard said they balance the game around specs and spec profile switching is part of the Default UI. It hardly gets any more core than that. It makes no sense to have per-character profiles and not per-spec profiles.

    There are several posts putting forward the case that this is core functionality. So rather than ask 'why not make this a library?' can I ask the following:

    What criteria does this feature (or any feature) have to meet in order to be included in Ace?
    Posted in: Ace3
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    posted a message on AceDB - Switch Profiles when User changes Spec?
    So I play warlock mostly. I have two raiding specs, affliction and destruction. I use Polmonitor GE to put up important icons, when I change spec I need to type /polmonitor, go to options->profiles->select the profile for my new spec, press ok. Or at least I did till I fixed AceDB (see patch in 1st post), now I switch spec and go :)

    Nevcairiel: I agree with what you're saying, but all your arguments work just as well for specs. I don't see anything in what you said that implies per-character profiles are good where per-spec profiles would be bad. To wit:

    Quote from Nevcairiel
    Of course, different characters require different setups. My one char may be lvl 10 and still leveling up, so i don't require alot of complex setup, just simple. But my other char which is 80 and raiding wants more stuff enabled in the UI and the mods.


    - Equally of course different specs require different setups. Affliction has more spells (in rotation) so my setup is far more complex than destruction.

    Quote from Nevcairiel

    Thats all the "per-character" is, remember which profile is active for every char.


    - All "per-spec" profiling does is store which profile was selected last for a spec.

    Quote from Nevcairiel

    ...there is no logic what-so-ever involved in loading or changing profiles. It just does what the user tells it to do.


    - That's not quite fair, AceDB already has logic that runs on startup to select the right profile to load (e.g. it checks your character & server). Per spec runs the very same logic when the spec switches.



    The only material differences to what is already included in AceDB that I can see are:
    - An extra tick box in AceDB options to enable per-spec switching.
    - We have to hook an extra event to catch the spec switch and rerun some of the startup logic.

    And that's it!
    Posted in: Ace3
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    posted a message on AceDB - Switch Profiles when User changes Spec?
    Notice that we have to contrive or dig-up counter examples where this is of less value. Wheras we can all name a dozen mods where this would be useful of the top of our head. This speaks volumes about the general usefulness to me.

    Other than that, Phanx has written a superb post that summs up everything else I was going to say, I completely empaphise.

    I'm curious about the naysayers here. Are you guys useing dual-spec? Are your specs for different roles? Do you use any addons that currently change when you change spec (including the Blizz buttons ofcourse)? Do you have to change anything (equipment, profiles, etc) when you switch spec?


    Nevcairiel: Would you mind explaining a little more?
    What would it take to convince you to add this (or anything) into AceDB?
    Or if you prefer a contraposative question: Can you justify per-character settings in AceDB but not per-spec?

    Many Thanks :)
    Posted in: Ace3
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    posted a message on AceDB - Switch Profiles when User changes Spec?
    Quote from durcyn
    it's trivial to do in the addons themselves, stop asking for useless bloat to be wedged into the library


    I'm not sure if this is a troll but...

    Persisting data is trivial. Does this mean AceDB is "useless bloat to be wedged into the library"? Should every developer could put this in the addons themselves? Well no because you also get per-character profile switching and it's implemented in a standard manner that allows things like Reflux to exist. That's why people like libraries like Ace.

    Anyway back to the topic...


    I can't think of any examples where you'd want per-character switching but never per-spec switching. You could take say a bag manager addon. You're unlikely to want bags managed differently per spec, but then you're unlikely to want it done differently per character either.

    How useful does a feature have to be to get into AceDB? OrionShock, who is a naysayer, just came up with 5 use cases covering hundreds of mods off the top of his head.

    Apart from:
    - Completely benign change when switched off (by default)
    - Needed by hundreds of mods in several different categories.
    - Mimicks functionality in the blizzard UI (where it's always not, not an option).

    What more would it take to convince people that it's core functionality?
    Posted in: Ace3
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    posted a message on AceDB - Switch Profiles when User changes Spec?
    This functionality has to be implemented somewhere since some addons need it (In fact I can't think of any addon that has per-character profiles that wouldn't have some users wanting this). It makes no sense for each author to do it his own way so we're either looking at a library or an extra addon.

    As an author: I get per-character switching for free with AceDB, but for per-spec switching I need to either include LibSpecProfileSwitcher, or tell my users they must install and configure yet-another-addon to get it to work.

    As a user: my addons automatically remember settings based on character but not per spec - even though the Default UI does this! Some authors have decided on my behalf that I may have the spec switching option, other authors have told me I need yet-another-addon to get it to work.

    Neither of these work well. Both end up with frustrated authors and users.

    Compare that to a simple patch to AceDB that makes it 'just work' all the time for everyone. Seems like a no-brainer to me.
    Posted in: Ace3
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    posted a message on AceDB - Switch Profiles when User changes Spec?
    AceDB already automatically switches profiles, just on a per-character basis, i.e. it remembers different profile settings for 'Gaff' and 'Gaffina' if I set them differently and automatically switches for me whenever I log in with a different char. It's hardly a huge leap of scope to extend this to character specs.

    There's no need to have extra settings storage either. If profiles called "Gaff.1" and "Gaff.2" exist then the user wants profiles with each spec, if those profiles don't exist but "Gaff" does then the user wants the same profile for each spec.
    Posted in: Ace3
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    posted a message on AceDB - Switch Profiles when User changes Spec?
    Thanks for the tip Re: Reflux, I'd not heard of that and Reflux could certainly use this sort of feature.

    Nobody has any thoughts on wheather it should be part of AceDB itself though? Another addon is all very well but it's still an extra thing for users to download and configure.
    Posted in: Ace3
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