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    posted a message on WowAceUpdater - An update tool for Windows users.
    Quote from sylvanaar »

    This is the last open source project for me. Not only do i not recieve any income from this, many of the end-users are not even appreciative.


    The irony of posting that here is staggering... near as I can tell we all do this for free and many of the end-users aren't even appreciative.

    Maybe I missed where this is posted but why, exactly, can't you launch a site with the system's default browser instead of forcing IE? Leave security (and politics, please) out of it and just answer from the perspective of user convenience (or if you have, which page in this monolith of a thread). I'm honestly just plain curious and "because!" is just find and dandy as an answer.
    Posted in: Updaters
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    posted a message on WowAceUpdater - An update tool for Windows users.
    Quote from D. F. Schmidt »

    I know this is an obvious reference but it's escaping me now. What about shoes at the airport?


    When you travel you have put your bags through the x-ray machine along with your shoes. You have to do this b/c some idiot stuffed explosives in his shoes with a 'fuse' hanging out and tried to strike match and light them in-flight. Thus we are much safer now because we all know how good the airport screeners are at finding contraband nail clippers but not, like, actual bombs or explosives -- yeah, I'm of the camp that's less afraid of terrorists than what we'll do to ourselves out of fear of the terrorists (like run Vista)
    Posted in: Updaters
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    posted a message on Dongle and Ace, a friendly coexistance.
    Quote from Kaelten »

    much of these type of things are already on the plan for the future. I just have to get to work on it :)


    You'd prolly get more done if you stopped trying to have a real life and playing the game and all that, that "other stuff" like sleeping.
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on WowAceUpdater - An update tool for Windows users.
    Quote from deluXE »

    Quote from Vincent »

    Forcing traffic to "release-level mods only" or at least by a default would reduce the cost WAU racking up with useless d/ls of unnoticeable changes.
    It's certainly worth exploring as a cost-reduction option.

    True, but one of the peculiarities of this site/community is the constant feedback between authors and users: bug reports, new features in need of testing, feature requests and so on. Your solution would bring wowace.com to being yet another addon website. Is that what we want?


    It's what we should want. The last thing I want is 20pms between here and on wowinterface.com b/c I u/led a drycode change and broke a beta that people treat as release b/c WAU's been encouraged to be used so damn much this has become a defacto mod site.

    Average-General-User shouldn't be touching beta software, ever. Smart, savvy, interested people, however, should have the option. I'm having fun with Omen, a product that's still in beta. It bites me in the ass when I update it and have to revert (mid-raid now and again) but I know what I'm getting into and that it's beta. If you're going to allow users to make dumb decisions, fine, but they should be informed dumb decisions where you try to keep them from injuring themselves ahead of time.

    Too many people treat WAU is "easy to get release code" and it isn't. However, you either stop them using it (which isn't gonna happen) or you find a way to use it to your advantage, the dev's advantage, and the site's bandwidth advantage.

    I wouldn't hurt mod authors to do more than "commit and forget" but go through a "beta" and "release" mode at least here if they won't do it to an official mod site (which ought to be a requirement of SVN hosting, imho, but that's K's call)

    It doesn't remove any dialog between self-appointed beta-testers and devs if they choose to have it here at all (I don't, personally, as it invites ad hoc end-users not just your beta testers) but it does vector off people who aren't involved in that process and just use WAU as a overly-easy install method.

    Quote from deluXE »
    Maybe we should all limit ourselves, users updating their mods only once a day and authors submitting when there are more substantiol changes.


    Not gonna happen, don't even try. It's already a strong suggestion to as part of the SVN rules not to "spam" updates; however, even daily updates just creates additional load b/d of people checking WAU constantly and snagging needless updates.
    Posted in: Updaters
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    posted a message on WeaponRebuff 3.0
    The extra 0 is a free service of Typographical Errors, Ltd, enjoy or fix at your pleasure, it'll be fixed in the next release.

    Ace is a framework not a dictum; not everyone knows about or gives a damn about what framework is used or even knows the /ace commands exist; what other Ace mods "typically do" is because those authors want them to work that way. If it bothers you I'm sure it bothers you all around with every other mod so this is my suggestion to enjoy a information-free WoW load: http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/fileinfo.php?id=6272

    Btw: I don't do mod support on these forums
    Posted in: General AddOns
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    posted a message on WowAceUpdater - An update tool for Windows users.
    Quote from sylvanaar »

    one last thing, the wau colors are configurable, they are just system colors. At least the search bar and the updated addon hilight. They are one of the gradient colors in the active and inactive window title bars. You can change em via your control panel.


    In for a penny, in for a pound: If you're going to use one of the gradient colors (the 'to' gradient as it turns out) then at least use the title text color... black on very-dark-red means I either don't read it or have to change my bleedin' desktop scheme (using the former option atm)

    Don't get me wrong, it's a cool idea as far as it goes but frankly I preferred the yellow 'highlights' as my inactive-title color is about a half shade darker than the dialog color so it's largely guesswork if I've missed updates at a glance.
    Posted in: Updaters
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    posted a message on WowAceUpdater - An update tool for Windows users.
    Quote from st0nedpenguin »

    If you want release versions, use one of the updaters that pulls mods from wowi/curse and download release versions from there.


    I'm convinced people don't read...

    Problem 1: not all developers use the mod sites for 'release' versions (I still don't understand it but there it is)

    Problem 2: too many end-users are pulling incremental development changes off the development svn when there's no real need to (you seriously derive no benefit from me fixing spelling errors in the readme.txt)

    Problem 3: people using WAU have no way to know when something is release-ready so they can nab that instead of bleeding- (sometimes broken-) edge beta.

    Forcing traffic to "release-level mods only" or at least by a default would reduce the cost WAU racking up with useless d/ls of unnoticeable changes.

    It's certainly worth exploring as a cost-reduction option.
    Posted in: Updaters
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    posted a message on Dongle and Ace, a friendly coexistance.
    Quote from Nickenyfiken »
    All addon no matter what should be as easy to update. I also think many authors think it's easy with a SVN where you just commit your changes and then you are done, no uploading zips and updating changelogs on addon sites.


    This has been the astonishing thing to me to be quite honest. I release on wowinterface.com (and exclusively there any more), do the packaging (with up-to-date libs), documentation, maintenance, support, etc and all the stuff we're supposed to do as authors -- I won't even start a project thread on the wowace forums b/c I don't want to be doing my support here for end-users.

    It's irritated me to absolutely no end when I can't find "release" versions of mods I find on files.wowace.com...I never know when it's "release" or when it's still beta.

    I relented to SVN one of my projects here b/c it was such a royal pain in the ass to do what I was doing before with 15-20 beta testers and they pestered me enough with "and it's just so easy to know when you updated something" -- and lord knows you can't put early beta code out on the major sites b/c no matter how big a warning label you put on it people still d/l it and expect it to work *shakes head* (though I do sometimes put late betas out there when I'm fairly confident of them just for major changes and a wider field of eyes).

    My brain still misfires when I read the complaints about people only "releasing" their mods here...when this isn't a mod site... I mean, sure, I lovingly use WAU but that's b/c I'm living dangerously with some mods but there's a bunch that are properly hosted on mods sites and I only update them when they're posted there with "release"-level code.
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on Dongle and Ace, a friendly coexistance.
    Quote from Shadowed »

    Quote from Vincent »

    The only reason I identify my mods with Ace is so that folks like myself will look at two comparable mods and be able to say "gee, I've got 15 Ace mods, this one might give me better performance" or "gee, I run no Ace mods, this one will be more bloated than needed" if nothing else in terms of features swayed them. Pretty much my thinking pattern any more since I've wound up running so many mods that are on the Ace framework. Otherwise, it'd just be an incidental note offering credit where it's due.


    People worry about performance far to much, it's something that authors should deal with if the user sees obvious performance issues then they should raise it with the author, but they should *never* think that it's better because you have 20 addons using Dongle or Ace. Even CPU numbers are inaccurate unless you know what you're doing, taking 0.5 seconds to cache something when you open the Auction House window is better then taking 0.55 seconds everytime you do something in the Auction House.


    Ya know, I was pretty clear in stating "if nothing else in terms of features swayed them" so I have no idea why you decided to reply as if I said something else, such as one being "better" or that the difference between ops was into the hundredths-of-seconds. Twisting words around isn't a good way to make the point you intend to make.

    But, hey, since you want to argue the theory in that side of it, let's pull out the wayback machine and look at a time just after Ace2 came out and look at empirical data, shall we? I had a mod I liked (sadly long abandoned by the author now) but gave me issues in terms of memory and caused some noticeable performance hits (screen stutter) during heavy raid combat. It was converted to Ace2 directly with no added features so it was an easy compare. Memory usage for the mod went down (used common library functions) and the screen shutter vanished (which I assume was due to the "better written" code in the libs).

    You should note I used this fun word called "probably" which you should seek a definition for along with the word "definitely" which it appears you think I used and I did not. Probability is that the Ace version will do better overall considering the number of Ace addons I run; however, it definitely does not follow that it "definitely" will because I've junked a good handful of Ace mods that had worse performance characteristics (and sometimes less features) than non-ace mods. Probabilities are just heuristic guides, not a formal analysis.
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on ArkInventory v2.00
    Quote from Arkayenro »

    Quote from Vincent »

    No thanks, I'm quite happy with ItemRack. .... I want the equipment displayed separately.

    then use the outfit() function as it supports itemrack as well - why make things harder by selecting them individually by id?


    They aren't "by outfit" that's kinda the point I'm making, it really is just buckets of stuff -- 'sides, you can't have > 1 item / slot in an outfit and I don't see the sanity cluttering up itemrack with ~20 outfits on top of the equipment configurations I already have in it. Just for the sake of explanation: I've 7 different weapons in the "currently useful weapons" category for use depending on the situation.

    I wouldn't ask for it if I could find another equal-or-lower-maintenance way to handle it -- I can't imagine you get less "can you do..???" requests than I do and I hate to add to the load.

    Quote from Arkayenro »

    You mean there's some other way to quickly add them? You were thinking, perhaps, I looked up the itemID and manually wrote a rule?

    well yes actually. i was going to suggest you use an outfit mod, as i presumed that if you were assigning items to rules manually then thats how you were wearing them as well.


    Alas, no. The current gear one almost works but I've a few pieces there that I swap out depending on who's tanking, who's healing, shammy/no-shammy, etc. I tried that but, heh, the number of categories in ItemRack were unmanageable.

    Quote from Arkayenro »

    1) if you assign an obj to a rule then assign it to another rule (using each as an itemID bucket) it remains in the first rule.

    no it remains with the lowest order rule - just like chosing items based on skills, it's going to pick all of one skill over another where they overlap (and most items have multiple uses so they do overlap)

    edit mode tells you which rule an item is being collected by, so if an item is not going where you think it should then you need to check where AI thinks you told it to put it and make sure its correct (ie not duplicated).


    *shakes head* You established that rule indexes can be shared by your own conversion program and the fact that there is no "renumber" feature to establish an independent index. If this isn't supported then it shouldn't be allowed and if it is allowed, it should be supported. Further, renumbering-rules-by-steps should be an internal function if you're going to go look at this as, essentially, harkening back to line-numbered languages.

    As it stands, experiencially, the rule index seems to only to sort in index order and rules appear to be processed in vertical order in the list. So...pardon me for using an illustration based on experience that would illustrate the problem clearly if only in one mode and not writing a thesis on every possible mode it could occur in, both detected and undetected.

    As to "check and fix" fine, fair enough; however, given the ability to use rules as ID buckets, this is both a radical change in previous behavior and counter-intuitive in terms of moving single items -- not every user gives in to the geeky urge of writing complex rules to govern their items. Now, it's easy enough to know you have a problem but correcting it is another matter entirely. Say I found out after moving around 20 items...which itemID is it I have to remove exactly? :D I know which rule has it both by position and checking the tooltip (well at least at the moment b/c it's possible to have it by itemID in > 1 rule so that's multiple phases in resolution...correcting it...that's another matter entirely. Especially if multiple items are in multiple rules and it's impossible to find a rule-organization that 'fixes' the problem.

    A simple "remove ID from rule" (and showing the IDs an item is in) option would be nice however it would require you to scan every rule and look for that itemID...didn't think that was a worthy suggestion. But if it's IN a rule by itemID, that should be easy and fast to check and the option of "copy or move" could be provided.


    Quote from Arkayenro »

    a) if the rules are at the same sort number nothing appears to happen and b) you can't necessarily figure out which itemID to nix out of the first rule unless it was the last item or something.

    as explained on the wiki page, rules at the same sort order can potentially be processed in a random manner (i think i may have changed it to do it by order then rule number but even then they still need to take that into account) so people need to understand that it's not a good idea to just plonk all the rules in at the same order number and expect them to work perfectly where there are overlaps.


    No, "people" don't need to understand that, "developers" need to either allow or disallow functions. If rules shouldn't share the same index, it should be disallowed; if it is allowed, it should be fully supported. So, as the issue stands here you're saying it is supported and thus the problem I've illustrated with duplicated IDs is a valid one. Where rules in pt() are concerned your statement is valid as the user supplies them themsleves; however, I'm not supplying the itemID in the rule, I'm using the interface to do this thus you are allowing overlaps in itemIDs without adequate notification or control for the user. If you are supporitng index-position sharing in rules (and all rules in them should be parallel, non-overlapping and I have no argument with this) then you have a gaping hole. I'm NOT EXPECTING THEM TO OVERLAP AND WORK FINE I've quite clearly indicated that they are in-parallel, non-overlapping and the program allows it without comment when using a rules-managemnet system within the UI. If I were editing the rule by hand, I'd drink a large cup of STFU and enjoy the pain I gave myself; however, when using the UI to manage the itemID assignments to rules the UI should consider these factors, alert the user, and receive confirmation from source-to-destiation where itemIDs (and IDs alone) are concerned.

    Mangement by logic and management by IDs are very separate animals and while it's teriffic that they're handled together there needs to be closed-loop on itemIDs


    Quote from Arkayenro »

    2) you can add the same itemID to the same rule multiple times. You might want to scan the itemIDs in bucket assignments to make sure there aren't dupes before you assign it.

    something i was looking at was cleaning up the rules when created/changed but it's not quite as easy at it looks. it doesn't hurt the rule but it can be confusing after a user removes an id and it's still there.

    Ok, I'll bite, how isn't it easy? The rule is just a string so it's just a parse check. You've got the ability to add an item, why not the ability to scan it first for the string you're going to append OR using either a split-parse or replace to 'remove' it? (not being snarky, honest question b/c it seems pretty straight forward)

    And, again, the kicker is when looking at a crapload of IDs, how do you nab the right one? It's not like you can do a touch-hilighting method in there (a la bag-to-item hilighting) b/c you don't exactly have a full featured IDE in there for the rules :)

    Quote from Arkayenro »

    [quote]I found both of these out b/c I clicked a titch too fast and couldn't get the item out into the proper rule-bucket w/o editing the first rule and killing the last itemID (thankfully it WAS last) and I noticed two dupe IDs in the rule I sent it to.

    as above, you can always go into edit mode and see what rule has collected the item and then change that rule if you've assigned it to another, or reorder them instead.


    As said before, knowing which rule the itemID is in doesn't help you one bit in getting it (and only it) out.
    Posted in: General AddOns
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    posted a message on ArkInventory v2.00
    Quote from Psyker7 »
    Try using Closet Gnome or Outfitter sets.


    No thanks, I'm quite happy with ItemRack. You read the post, yes? I didn't say anything about needing help getting dressed or picking it up out of the bank, I want the equipment displayed separately.

    Quote from futurekill »

    If you go into edit mode then right click an item, there is an option to add it to a rule...


    You mean there's some other way to quickly add them? You were thinking, perhaps, I looked up the itemID and manually wrote a rule? o.O The assignment system is the exact same as the custom-category system just with "rule" tacked on, same old procedure, same complaint I had back in 1.0 and you can see my asking about grouping assignments over on arkinventory's wowinterface thread.



    Btw, Ark, two problems I see:

    1) if you assign an obj to a rule then assign it to another rule (using each as an itemID bucket) it remains in the first rule. In some cases that might be desired; however, as a default behavior it will cause more difficulty than "moving" the itemID with an over-ride to duplicate it especially because a) if the rules are at the same sort number nothing appears to happen and b) you can't necessarily figure out which itemID to nix out of the first rule unless it was the last item or something.

    2) you can add the same itemID to the same rule multiple times. You might want to scan the itemIDs in bucket assignments to make sure there aren't dupes before you assign it.

    I found both of these out b/c I clicked a titch too fast and couldn't get the item out into the proper rule-bucket w/o editing the first rule and killing the last itemID (thankfully it WAS last) and I noticed two dupe IDs in the rule I sent it to.
    Posted in: General AddOns
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    posted a message on Dongle and Ace, a friendly coexistance.
    Quote from teedog »
    Some authors I'm sure like the tag precisely because ignorant users flock to it thinking Ace2==good.


    Some people -- and, imho, people with security and meaning issues -- latch onto symbols as if holding onto those symbols makes them better, cooler, smarter, wiser, more special than they really are. It irks me to absolutely no end when people go off on how "Ace mods are better" *sigh* It's either ignorance or arrogance and it's hard to tell which. Ace provides a good framework on which to write a well-written mod but, heh, it doesn't mean your code isn't bovine scatology in a bottle.

    The only reason I identify my mods with Ace is so that folks like myself will look at two comparable mods and be able to say "gee, I've got 15 Ace mods, this one might give me better performance" or "gee, I run no Ace mods, this one will be more bloated than needed" if nothing else in terms of features swayed them. Pretty much my thinking pattern any more since I've wound up running so many mods that are on the Ace framework. Otherwise, it'd just be an incidental note offering credit where it's due.

    Identifying the framework is as necessary as identifying that your iPod only works with iTunes because that little bit of infrastructure is rather useful knowledge. When someone told me about Omen I though "big deal, another threat mod" then "it tracks threat per mob" and I was all ears (ktm killed me that damn much) but when it came to "it's an Ace mod" here's what came to mind: Oh, sweet, it'll prolly hook into SharedMediaLib so I'm not stuck with some stupid bar texture I can't read and sounds I can't stand so on this particular subject I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree. Ace, Dongle, TokenRing, Ethernet...sometimes the guts are relevant.

    And, as a side bonus, you watch people get up in arms about about "ace=good" or "ace=bloatware vs dongle=good"...well, it lets you know who's speaking wisely and who's kinda fixated.
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on WowAceUpdater - An update tool for Windows users.
    Quote from Kaelten »

    Ok guys, we're prepping for a new version of the updater. Along with this is some new ad solutions. The majority of our users will now have very plain simple text based advertising. I know its still not perfect, but I do hope that people will see this as a step in the right direction. More steps will be taking over the weeks ahead to improve everything.


    Well, after some 'fun' getting the new version to work (it kept thread locking) I got a chance to check out the new ads. Text ads, cudos. Slightly better relevance in ads, cudos. Still forcing IE though...
    Posted in: Updaters
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    posted a message on ArkInventory v2.00
    After working through a complete retool of the rules and tossing out all the converted ones, I flat-out B E G you for this feature in some manner or form: "select these items, all go to this rule" or even a "same a last rule association" option or, Lord, something. I keep rules for gear, weapons, different resist types, and what is essentially "RP" gear...don't that by hand, again, is about as much fun as an IRS audit. Still have 5 chars to do that on too...
    Posted in: General AddOns
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    posted a message on WowAceUpdater - An update tool for Windows users.
    Quote from xOrion73x »
    On a side note.. wanna see the funds rise? post donation amounts under people's avatars.. the competition for who's the highest ought to capture at least part of the userbase.


    Well, I wouldn't go that far, different subscription levels would do that nicely with a cute tag under your name on the forums; however, you are 100% correct that that sort of display would create competition at some level, just look at the top 10 most philanthropic rich people lists that come out every year...hard to lose money appealing to people's egos as any plastic surgeon will tell you. (Not sure wowace should go there but, heh, it would work)
    Posted in: Updaters
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