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    posted a message on Proposal: LFG Tool
    I wound up disabling the call to arms addon, as I found I was both missing messages and having very long delays getting them at times with it active.

    I did find LFGVoyer which looks interesting.

    Also hoping you come up with something soon too.. the lfg system really needs help at times.

    Wonder if there is some way to tie the keypress into some other common event to tick off calling to it every so often?
    Posted in: Addon Ideas
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    posted a message on Addons in compilations
    Quote from sylvanaar
    WAU is still a functional application. You just need to provide the server to download from and some other data.

    I have thought about setting it up for my guild

    Hmm... yeah, that is what I am thinking also, for some reason people do not like to keep groupcalendar up to date, and I still think it is better then blizs, so I need to figure out some way to make this super easy to get it to still be used.
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on Addons in compilations
    Phanx, editing my posts and sending me an infraction notice is rather pathetic and I feel an abuse of your mod privs.
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on Addons in compilations
    Quote from sylvanaar
    Well, if someone is serious about a compilation, then...

    The privately hosted compilation. Gather addons together, and host them on you own site. Give your users an updater (you can use wau actually).


    Oh, one last thing. Generally you dont install things to WTF. You place the settings in a LoD addon, and then just load it one time once they have logged in, or if they delete all thier saved variables, you can just reload it.

    Its a service really. You can even let your users sumbit addon preset configurations. Lots of ways to add value by being user focused.

    I thought wau was dead? How could it be used? So who want to work on this?
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on Addons in compilations
    Quote from Phanx
    What point are you trying to make with this? If the speed limit on your road was 40 mph for 60 years, and then 20 years ago it was changed to 25 mph, and tomorrow you're driving 40 mph and a police officer pulls you over and writes you a ticket for exceeding the speed limit, do you really think he will be swayed if you tell him that the speed limit 20 years ago was 40 mph? Even if the speed limit was only changed last week, you would still get the ticket. As a driver, it is your responsibility to know the laws that apply, or at least to read the posted signs. If you've ever gone to court to contest a traffic ticket, you've undoubtedly heard other contesters telling the judge hilariously pathetic tales of their own ignorance; the response is always that ignorance does not excuse wrongdoing.

    The point hooks back to one of your original questions. Had you asked it honestly I think you would be getting the point. I am now getting the understanding from your answers and what you also have chosen not to answer that you were really asking rhetorically and did not expect and answer. You know seems to want to mix civil and criminal law in ways
    they don't really.... both your analogies are attempted to be derived from criminal law and civil law works differently. In fact in civil cases it is not unheard of for ignorance to be an excuse, so don't bring out the trite saying ignorance is no excuse without at least knowing it applies more to criminal and than civil law.

    I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I looked over my previous posts in this thread and cannot find anywhere where I "attempted" to "imply" anything about you. And quite honestly, I had to scroll down to see who you even were, as I have merely been responding to the arguments you wrote, not to you personally.

    Post # 39 is the one, you quote me and use 'you'. Now I am aware that a shortcoming of modern English is the lack of a distinct plural form of you. This is the reason for the regional dialect variations of 'you all' and 'yous'. However, even in the cases of this regional usage such as 'Hi you all', ' How yous all doin?' the person is in the group
    that is being referred to by the you. You have already shown you know other ways to better communicate that you mean the general public, and I don't think my taking you when quoting me and replying to me to mean or at least include me is unreleasable. I do think you acting surprised at this is.

    All well and good, for a user. I don't read the licenses for most of the addons I use either, as all I am doing is downloading the addon and running it on a single personal computer for personal use. But you bet your ass that if I ever got in the mood to package up any of those addons and upload my UI, I would take the time to look through each addon for license terms.

    I read them as a user myself... I think you can tell some about the authors way of thinking and thus even to some extent the mod from the way they deal with licensing. I would even be rereading them if making a compilation also. However I would not be surprised if I wound up missing if an upgrade
    changed the terms.

    Let's say you have a nice lawn. Let's say people frequently walk their dogs across your lawn and leave behind smelly brown piles. Sure, it's easy to knock on your neighbor's door and ask him to please not let his dog crap on your lawn, and sure, he'll probably apologize and promise not to do it again. But do you really want to knock on a dozen doors a week forever to get each person to stop this unpleasant behavior, while every day a new dog uses your lawn as a bathroom? It would be so much easier if people would just read the sign you posted in front of your lawn saying "please clean up after your dog", wouldn't it?

    I would love for people to do what I wanted when I wanted and why I wanted. In this case I could also appeal to the police for help since it is criminal law they are breaking.... you really should not mix the two.

    So, addon authors should avoid making any changes in their addons that might make compilation uploaders and compilation users spend a few minutes changing a few settings?

    Who said that?

    I'm getting the impression that English is not your native tongue. If this is the case, then I apologize for the confusion my previous posts have apparently caused. In English, it is common to use "you" in a general sense, without referring to the person being spoken to. If this is not the case, then, well, I don't know what to tell you. The statement you quoted was a "general you", not a "you, the person writing under the alias twobits".

    Apparently not common enough to make it into the dictionary I am aware of and have access to. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/you for example shows it meaning just what I took it to mean as far as I can tell.

    Stop taking everything out of context. Someone said "if compilations don't include the addon files, then when a user updates a year-old compilation, the new version of the addon might not work with the settings that were supplied by the compilation". I responded that this was not an argument in favor of compilations including addon files, but an issue that could be very easily solved by the compil

    You indicated the problem with compilation was they were not maintained and that users would come to you with issues that had already been fixed, is this not in effect complaining that compilations are not updated enough?

    Apparently we are using the word "divine" in different ways. I never meant to imply that copyright was not a human concept. Indeed, I do not believe in anything "divine" as you are using the word. I'll try to avoid using words that may have religious connotations in the future, as religion could not be more irrelevant to this discussion.

    Yes, I use it as it is commonly used and as defined again in the dictionaries I am aware of. If you do not use words as they are defined and choose to make up meanings for them then it is going to be very hard to carry on a conversation, and you always saying you do not understand makes more sense. We speak differently languages it seems even though they seem similar on the surface.

    I think what you mean to say here was what is often called 'natural rights' in any case a rose or a natural right by any other name, whichever/ whatever you choose to call it my reply is valid all the same.

    I actually agree 100% that a creator of a work should be able to control it though. I just find odds with your means to say it.

    Yes, copyright was created to encourage publication -- by guaranteeing that when you published something, a dozen other people couldn't turn around and publish ripoffs. Yes, the intent was to limit the term of protection -- yet you yourself have said that 20 years is a "blink of an eye", while any work relevant to this specific discussion (i.e. any of my addons) has existed for only one-tenth of that time. Even the original copyright law, in the US at least, lasted for more than two years. I fail to see how anything I have said is in opposition to this intent.

    I said twenty years is a blink of an eye in terms of copyright law history... who is the one who is taking things out of context??? I was pointing out that since you did not even both with copyright and licensing till after you distributed the work, that is had zero effect in the creating off and making the work available... just not used to having to spell things out to the degree you seem to need... sorry.

    The legal points I am arguing are very specific, and I have only brought them up because without some legal rights involved, it seems that most people are entirely willing to trample all over my personal wishes. Laws are written in a complex fashion because they must be extremely specific, or any criminal with an IQ larger than his shoe size could find a dozen loopholes. However, the essence of the law is not at all complex. In this case, there is an entire website published by the US government's copyright office that is dedicated to explaining copyright in simple terms that are easily understood by anyone. Here are a few excerpts that I am quite confident in the veracity of and in my understanding of. Bold added for emphasis

    I think the point being made is the legal club is not a good one to use in civial law unless you are prepared to back it up.

    "Copyright, a form of intellectual property law, protects original works of authorship including literary, dramatic, musical, and artistic works, such as poetry, novels, movies, songs, computer software, and architecture."

    "Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device."

    "Copyright exists from the moment the work is created."

    "... if registration occurs within 5 years of publication, it is considered prima facie evidence in a court of law."

    That last one is important, because multiple people have pointed out that I would be unable to pursue a formal legal case because I have not registered my work. As the earliest publication of any of my addons occurred in late 2006 (and I have retained archival copies of every released version), I still have nearly three years in which to register if I feel such is necessary. However, as I have stated previously, I sincerely hope that I never reach that point.

    It was I who said that , and it does not invalidate the point, I never said that you could not win in court to prevent redistribution of your works. What I said was if you failed to register you would only be able to do that and not collect statutory damages. This makes it highly unlikely such a venture would be worth the time and effort it would require.

    As I've stated many times, this problem is not about people intentionally disregarding the law. This problem is not about people believing that the law does not apply. This problem is not about the law at all. This problem is about people not reading, even when they lack vital knowledge that they could obtain in less than 30 seconds of reading.

    If you really want to have fun with peoples and copyright laws, get into a discussion of 'fair use'.

    Yeah, that will never happen. Not only because you'll never get a consensus, or probably even a majority, on an acceptable format, but also because not all authors want their addons indiscriminately included in compilations. On the rare occasion someone actually asks if it's okay to include my addon in their compilation, I ask them to send me a screenshot, because if it looks like garbage, I don't want my work associated with it. Other authors may feel differently, and may only be concerned with gaining as large a userbase as possible. No XML format will address these issues. :p

    Actually if people really do want to try something here, I would say there should be toc fields... define an X-Copyright or X-License filled with some well known values.. then packaging tools and sites could scan for them to help detect and prevent undesired compiilation.
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on Revelation
    Quote from amoeba
    This is a very useful AddOn -- thanks for making it.

    While this is useful for a number of professions, I don't think it's so useful for Jewelcrafters. Jewelcrafters often have way too many Designs to scan through. I'm not a JC myself but the basic path my friend takes in choosing which jewels to make is asking himself what will sell the best on the AH at the given moment.

    What would make this a great AddOn for Jewelcrafters would be to integrate the 'What can I make with this item?' list with Auctioneer or other AH data to sort the list by value-on-the-AH. This could be helpful for players with other professions as well.

    I'd be willing to lend a hand once I'm off vacation if needed.

    Maybe you are looking for something like matscost to compliment this with?

    ( http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/matscost.aspx )
    Posted in: General AddOns
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    posted a message on Revelation
    I need to update a list of vendor purchasable trade mats in an addon I am now maintain. Maybe we can figure out a way to mine it from the armory, and or otherwise share the work?
    Posted in: General AddOns
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    posted a message on Addons in compilations
    Quote from Torhal
    [Derail thread]

    I see basically the same issue all of the time with people asking if X addon will do Y feature rather than simply downloading and installing it to see for themselves. I pointed this out once and the person basically said "I don't feel like taking the time to do this then load WoW and uninstall it if I don't like it". Instead, the person will take the time to check the thread constantly to see if anyone has answered. It's friggin' awesome.


    lol, I think I saw that, it was about LDB addons....

    now I am getting tempted to ask people what unit frame addons they like, lol, finding that one to be a real pain to find one that suits me so far...
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on Addons in compilations
    Quote from Phanx
    And that happened in 1989, over a decade before WoW was even a twinkle in Blizzard's eye, and is therefore completely irrelevant to this discussion. And since I live in the US, and my addons are written in the US, they are protected by US copyright law; this is quite plainly stated in my license, if you or anyone else would ever bother to take the 30 seconds to read it.

    And yet in terms of copyright law history it is still yet a blink of an eye ago this change happened; and even still this is not 100% universal in all counties and not all places honor US copyrights. The relevance here is simply that you were harking on 'its the law its the law' and how people should all know this. Given all the jurisdictions and the interactions between them and most trying to claim they are the one that applies (cases have claimed jurisdiction for being the start point, the end point and transmission points of data traveling the wires). You already said you did not bother to consider a license or copyright notice when you first put your work online, in some jurisdictions it is now public domain materials. Just as you are right under US law that it is protected by US copyright, they would be right that they have the right to use it as a public domain work by downloading it in theirs. Luckily they are mostly very poorly connected 'piranha' states for the most part. You could spend your entire lifetime just trying to read the law and never get through them all let alone figure out their interactions. As for me taking the 30 seconds to read them, I had for your addons before when browsing wowi thank you very much for your attempt to imply otherwise for whatever reason. Now... at least for me once I do find and start to use an addon, updating it is mostly an automatic process, I am highly unlikely to notice a change in terms past my initial checking out of an addon.

    I hope it never comes to the point where I have to think about filing legal claims, since the major UI sites actually respect authors' rights and wishes and will remove compilations that redistribute addons without the author's consent. That said, though, I could wrap my addon in 50 pages of legalese

    Yes, I would find it hard to imagine that many wow addons would really be worth that much expensive and effort to protect. In fact they are probably not worth the aggravation they seem to already be causing you, especially since it is not really the code you are trying to protect since you do not care what is done with it under a different name. It really does seem like it is not so much the copyright you want to protect as your good name and the addons?

    and it still wouldn't help, because 99.99% of the issue is that people do not read anything, as evidenced by the fact that every uploader I've contacted who has responded (and I'm guessing the others simply never got the message) has promptly removed my addon and said "sorry I didn't know". Nobody argues that copyright and my license aren't valid; they just don't think and don't read, and believe that "not knowing" excuses any wrongdoing they might do in their ignorance.

    Seems you are actually getting things cleared up pretty easily then all things considered.

    This is hardly a problem specific to the "settings only" kind of compilation; the uploader should release a new version of the compilation regardless. If he isn't posting updates for major new addon features, which don't really come along that frequently in stable addons, how likely is it that he's posting updates necessary for WoW patches, or providing any support for users?

    Update regardless? Why? Part of the compilation should be to pick version that works well together, that can take some time. Also feature creep in an addon can mean a compilation would not want to update. I would think an addon that required you to always update it would not be suitable for a compilation as it could take time to bring in properly if at all depending on the changes.

    Not really. Give users a list of links to authors' download pages, and let them download and update their addons like everyone else. Having updated addons is not some divine right of which all mankind is possessed. Neither you nor anyone else is entitled to the use any addon. If updating addons once a month is too hard (believe it or not, you don't really need to download every update that comes along), then don't use addons.

    Had been trying that... got sick of dealing with supporting that, lol... no idea why but to a few people I help out, they find unzipping more then a file or two 'hard', so I broke down and automated it for them.... in this case I was just thinking out loud about the earlier post someone had of suppling a list of what should be downloaded and an autoupdated for that.

    And here you go again. for someone who complains of others not reading, you sure seem to imagine that people have written a lot of things they never did.... where did I say anything about entitlement, or how hard it is for me to update or not update an addon. And now you who was complaining that addons are not updated quickly enough in compilation then switch to saying you don't have to download every update... lol I agree... I still use NetBSD 2.x and prefer windows 2000 when I have to use windows, but it is a funny shift on your part. Speaking of divine rights..... Copyright itself is not a divine right, it was created by man. Oddly enough it was created to encourage the sharing of works (publishing of them) and also part of the intent was to create a public domain from these works after a limited time. Many intellectual property theorist in fact try to argue that it is a divine right to copy things when it does not cause the original to be consumed. Very funny that you would pick that piece of hyperbola in a way the opposite many think of it.

    It is freeware. There's a difference between "freeware" and "public domain". Educate yourself before you post things that don't make sense.

    Oddly enough, freeware was the original trademarked term for what is now considered shareware.

    This. Go look at any addon's download page comments. Go look at any addon's forum thread. Go look at any place anywhere where users report bugs for WoW addons. Look at the percent of reports that make any sense at all, let alone are detailed enough to be of any use. If you provide support for your compilation and are willing to hold hands and gently explain to users over and over again that they need to update their addons, that's great, but you are a very, very, very small minority.

    Support is the issue? Or reputation? I myself don't really feel any requirement to give support for works I give freely. I usually will but it is not an obligation I feel.
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on Addons in compilations
    Quote from OrionShock
    // Warning this is a Joke //
    how bout this.. it's an awesome solution..

    When you make a compliation, DO NOT Include addons at all, Just your WTF Files.
    Then List all the addons your going to need.

    There Solves 2 problems with one stone. Now no more random updates or lack of and 2 it dosn't step on anyone that dosn't want their stuff distributed. Granted this does create that problem that the Vast Majority of wow players will not actualy take the time and effort to download those mods on their onw... But that's their problem :P


    Not do compliations at all. I vote for this one.

    Actually what I did was write an installer for friends that wanted me to make a compilation for them, what it does it check a master list that is kept in version sync with what I am running and then installs/updates the mods they use to that version... works well enough to keep them in sync with version that I know are running well, but would run into wowmatrix like issues if let into the wild as is I guess.... it is a case of damed if you do and damned if you dont here... if you include/host the files some authors get annoyed, and if you don't you leech bandwidth from the sites....
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on Addons in compilations
    Quote from Phanx
    Wrong. This is the same misconception I keep hearing from people. This is not how it works. If an addon does not explicitly state any license terms, full copyright protections apply. If an addon does not explicitly grant you a right, you do not have that right. If that weren't the case, if having no license terms meant you had all the rights you could dream up, I would not push this so hard, because for a long time I didn't state any license terms, and it would be my own fault. However, that's not the case. Adding license terms to my distribution is actually a change in the direction of "less restrictive", as my license (and any license, really) grants you rights above and beyond those granted by copyright.

    It actually depends on where and when the work was authored and distributed. In the US for example, before they signed the International Berne convention a work with no license terms and copyright notice was indeed considered to be in the public domain.

    I don't even care if I get credit. If you want to distribute my code in your compilation or your addon, that is 100% okay with me, as long as it does not have my name attached. Change the name of the addon, including the name as used in the code, and don't use my addon's name to advertise yours, and you can distribute it in a compilation, encrypt it and charge money for it, or do anything else you want with it and I won't bat an eye.

    That's really what I find so baffling, is that people would rather deal with this than read a few lines in a text file, perform a simple search-and-replace, and rename a few files.

    Seems to me you may be better served saying your code is pd and you have a protected trademark for the use of the name from a legal perspective anyway. You would never be able to claim damages to enforce the copyright in a meaningful way, and I doubt you have registered it with the library of congress to enforce them without damages, however you can enforce mark usage without this need.
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on Proposal: LFG Tool
    Quote from Dridzt
    There's another author (guessing) that's posted a version of CTA on wowinterface.

    Haven't tried it to see how functional it is but thought I'd mention it:
    Call to Arms

    In my post I linked to another update for 3.0 that was done as well.... and is working better then this one... seems at least three people are now working on this.... and the one I linked to is in touch with the original author and had apparently been trying to get access to take over the project for updating it.
    Posted in: Addon Ideas
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    posted a message on Junkie: Garbage Management
    Quote from break19
    Yes, I've noticed similar behavior after visiting merchants, and having my stuff autosold. Other than that, it works great.


    I have fixed this. Also added a sanity check before an item is deleted. Since it had a OS license and the author is gone I forked it and made it available as Junkit. Should be available on Curse by now.
    Posted in: Data Broker AddOns
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    posted a message on Proposal: LFG Tool
    Quote from sylvanaar
    I was an avid user then maintainer of CallToArms. It was by far the best grouping addon i ever found.

    I'll leave it at this: I want the tool to
    1. Not require others to install it
    2. Not spam.
    3. Not overcomplicate the processs, just get you the information you need, when you need it.
    I'm open to any suggestions or anyone who would liike to participate.\

    For example, if you have a library or code base which this tool could tie into (say player ratings). That would be usefful.

    But at the core, all it will do is give you a list of who is LFG, and what the addon can determine they are LFG/M for.

    I had been using the autolfg addon just to be able to see the channel. I recently have been trying the calltoarms version I found and can see where it adds some nice touches to the existing lfg features.

    I also see Karma seems to be adding hooks into the lfg system now. It would be a good source of player ratings.

    When you talk about a real tool why not just keep building on call to arms? The internals a mess?
    Posted in: Addon Ideas
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