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    posted a message on AddOn Copyright
    Quote from Elsia »

    Cog, didn't you say you were going to defend my rights?

    You are in the right to request it be removed.

    Consider your right defended.

    I'm not affiliated with wowinterface in any way beyond having addons hosted there, so i don't see what I can possibly do to solve the problem...

    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on AddOn Copyright
    Quote from dafire »

    Yes .. but it's not only a download collection. His core addons where used to arrange and configure those addons... and integrate them in his mazzlegasm thing. Imo that's something that would be ok with LGPL but not with GPL licensed addons.

    Wrong again. The LGPL is used in cases where part of the covered work is actually included within the new creation itself. For instance, if you compile a program against the GNU C libraries, a portion of those libraries is "physically" incorporated into your program.

    Mazzle's own addons don't INCORPORATE code from other addons, they simply use features provided by said addons. There is no copying going on when you use the features provided by a piece of software so there can be no violation of copyright.

    Besides, this argument isn't about the compilation at all. It's about one single addon created by Mazzle that he incorporates into his compilation.

    Or are you just being vindictive and trying to force MazzleUI out of existence?
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on AddOn Copyright
    Quote from dafire »
    When I checked MazzleUI .. some times ago it contained 200+ addon folders

    he integrated all those in his ui and some of the addons are licensed under the gpl... I don't think his license is compatilble with that.

    1) Including a GPL'ed work in a compilation with other non-GPL'ed work is not a violation of the GPL.
    2) If Mazzle modified any of the GPL'ed works, then they too are under the GPL and I don't see Mazzle trying to claim copyright authority over any of that. He's only exercising his rights with respect to the original works he created.
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on AddOn Copyright
    Quote from Ackis »

    Reading the article I can see why it wasn't removed.

    The original work was the same but by the time the complaint got to the proper ears, the add-on was distinguished enough to be considered a separate entity in itself.

    That doesn't make it legal. It wouldn't have existed in the new form were it not for the original violation. Derivative works are equally protected under copyright law. (I believe this was also touched upon in the article, though I may just be remembering other discussions I had about it yesterday.) The WoWAce admins are legally obligated to remove it.

    Edit: on the "damages" front (referring to an earlier post, not yours), sure, Mazzle wouldn't be able to sue in civil court. But copyright violations are a criminal offense. Further, he could sue for an injunction forcing WoWAce to remove it even if no damages are awarded. I highly doubt it would come to that, and I wouldn't necessarily agree with it, but it's entirely within his rights.
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on AddOn Copyright
    Quote from Astaldo »
    Addon authors should write addons not police them,

    I hate going into "this is what's wrong with the world" mode, but what you said there is downright offensive to anyone who believes people have rights. You are exactly the person who should be enforcing your rights. If you don't, who else will? Obviously not the WoWAce admins. Obviously not the Police. If you feel the Police and WoWAce admins are indeed the ones to police such matters, what happens when you don't feel like they're doing their job? Who are you supposed to turn to?
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on AddOn Copyright
    Quote from Elsia »

    Cog: Mazz is wasting our time, because we now redo what he has done and is unwilling to share, and he could have saved our time by just being more inclusive.

    And what about HIS time? He and his beta testers are the one that made his addon possible. Anyone who uses his code without his permission is infringing upon the time he spent creating it.

    Tell me this... What would the situation be if he hadn't written it in the first place? Would you have the right to force him to make it for you? What is it about the fact that he created it that gives you and others the right to take it without asking? In other words, how does a thing's existence suddenly imbue you with the right to possess it?

    Yes he has the right to not be inclusive but hey. People who solely insist on their rights rather than look what's good for the community, are pretty much what defines a dick really.

    Umm no... People who try to tell others what they should and shouldn't do with respect to their own rights are the dicks. That's what makes it a Right in the first place. If your rights are defined by the whims of the community then they're not rights at all.

    He absolutely has the full right to be a dick. That's how the system works. We may have the responsibility to take care of the community even if he doesn't share that responsibility be crying for his rights. I'm not saying Mazz has no rights at all, he also has however the right to be a more helpful person to the community. Mazz is control-freaking us again, just like the silly mazzlegasm situation. Yeah he had the right to insist on it until pressure was such that he had to change. Give that I don't expect him to take a helpful stance and it's a crying shame. That's all I have to say about Mazz really. All this is unproductive, it's been unproductive since february it seems.

    All he did is ask that a violation of his copyright be removed. Such a travesty... The "contraversy" only started when someone refused to respect his rights.

    So Cog are you going to defend my rights as much as you defend Mazzle's?

    Of course. I'm not a hypocrite (plus, I said as much twice in my last post).
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on AddOn Copyright
    Quote from zophiel »

    Since Blizzard "open sourced" the API, and addons are based off of that, it's implied that most of the codework would fall within the OS standard

    Wow... You have no idea how things like this work... That is a horribly misguided view of the situation. Blizzard's code is NOT open source. Just because you use source files to distribute addons does not invalidate copyright in any way. By your definition, books are open source too, simply because the words are printed right there on the page for everyone to see.

    Even if Blizzard did say "Hey, our UI is licensed under an open source license" that still wouldn't have ANY effect on the situation. It only applies to their code itself. There is no legal way to copyright an API. An API is equally usable by anyone, and creations made for an API do not OWE anything to the "owner" of said API.

    That's my general view on the whole mess Mazzle created.

    Mazzle didn't create the mess. The person who wholesale copied Mazzle's addon without permission and posted it as their own creation did. And people with horribly warped views like yours made it worse.
    Posted in: General Chat
  • 0

    posted a message on AddOn Copyright
    Quote from Elsia »

    OK so reading this article, every party tries to mediate and Mazz is being a dick.

    Are you trying to say that Mazzle's copyright is somehow diminished because he's a dick?

    That's the thing... He has EVERY right (legally) to license his work in whatever way he pleases. IF people try to mediate, come to some sort of other arrangement, he also has the right to say "No."

    Why is this so hard for you people to comprehend?

    I'm all in support of open source. I have no problems with people releasing their code and giving explicit license to copy, modify, extend, whatever. However, just because you feel that way about your own code doesn't mean everyone has to follow your views.

    It may be time for the community to manually reconstruct the database and recover DaPortrait that way. Because essentially that's what Mazz demands. Redo my work, because I'm not willing to share.

    Exactly. Tell us what's wrong with that?

    Mazz was an idiot back when it was about a switch for Mazzlegasm. A sensible person would have added the switch and that would be it. But no, Mazzlegasm was a whole long ordeal working against Mazz's bonehead and it needed Blizz to intervene to get him to his senses. But now he's just pissing in every corner rather than trying to find a common solution.

    The way you feel about Mazz is ENTIRELY irrelevant to the discussion. He could be the nicest guy in the world, have done everything asked of him, and still felt that he didn't want his code copied.

    Maybe all addon authors that have addons used and modified in MazzleUI withdrawn their permission of use until the matter is resolved? I for one am tempted to withdraw that permission to use a post 2.3 Recount in MazzleUI.

    You're free to do so, and I fully support that. Assuming, of course, Recount doesn't already have an open license, in which case you already gave him explicit permission.

    Who in fact got asked by Mazzle if it's OK for him to modify their addons for his UI? Mazz is throwing stones standing in a glass house and it seems he isn't even getting it.

    As far as I know, the only addons Mazzle modified are ones for which he got permission. For the rest, all he did was write his own addon to configure their settings which is in no way a violation of copyright.

    That seems to be the mode of operation Mazzle advocates. The real problem is that he advocates that position and isn't working with others to find common ground (again, mazzlegasms reloaded).

    Just because you work for a middle ground doesn't mean he's obligated to meet you there. You're free to present your arguments, he's free to reject them. That's the whole point of copyright. I wonder how you would feel if I tried to sell software that's covered under the GPL... (and i don't mean just the packaging). The authors of the "Copylefted" work would have to exert the same copyright Mazzle is using to prevent me from doing it.

    And Clad, why you are targeting Kaelten, when many parties have tried to take a mediating position is beyond me.

    umm... Because Kaelten was the one quoted in the article? Go figure...

    But Mazz doesn't mediate so there are really two things one can do in an adversarial situation like this:

    1) Ask Mazzle to remove your addon from MazzleUI if he hasn't asked permission and was granted it. If he has modified your addon ask that any version of MazzleUI be removed from the addon site that contains your modified addon because of CR IP infringement.

    This essentially means that we as community withdrawn from Mazz the benefits that he himself refuses to extend to others.

    Again, that's as much your prerogative as it is his to ask that DaPortrait be removed from WoWAce.

    2) Join the OpenPortrait project to help measure out the data ourselves and make it public domain.

    This is to acknowledge that he can in fact block access to his stuff, but not let him control what's out there. If we have a public domain copy he may charge that it's stlll derivative, but there is no CR argument for it anymore, simply because portrait coords existed before MazzleUI.

    That's exactly what you should do imo... It's called competition. Who knows? Maybe your data will be even better. People say copyright stifles creativity, but if Mazzle's enforcement of his copyright leads people like you and others to innovate beyond the point Mazzle offered, isn't that a good thing?

    Mazzle is wasting our time. I guess he got that one covered.

    Not sure what you're getting at there...

    What Mazzle doesn't get is that the UI community is symbiotic. MazzleUI wouldn't exist without the good will and work of other addon authors. So some sort of good will from his end would be a sensible position.

    Umm... So because you are willing to share your information with others, he's obligated to do the same? Thanks, but No. If you don't want him using your info for whatever purpose you see fit, then don't put your information out there in a freely accessible manner.

    Anyone can learn to write addons without the information you (wowace forums, wowwiki docs, etc.) provide.
    Posted in: General Chat
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