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    posted a message on AddOn Copyright
    Quote from Moon Witch »

    (ps. I am a she.)


    Fix'd! =)

    And sorry for that incorrect (though i think you can agree valid) assumption too :P
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on AddOn Copyright
    Quote from Bam »
    No, I don't feel like that about all software. I can't define exactly where I draw the line. But obviously it's not where you draw it.


    Actually, my point is that I don't see a line at all. :P And if this discussion gets you to think about these things in a different way--even if you don't change your mind--it's all for the better. :)
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on AddOn Copyright
    Quote from Moon Witch »

    Actually, how do you know what my goal was with that post? But nice slap nonetheless.


    Don't worry... I get accused of the same when I'm genuinely curious about things like that, so I know how it feels. ;) After enough accusations like that, I tend to add statements attesting to my genuine curiosity if it can be interpreted as a loaded question. Sorry for being incorrect in my assumption.
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on AddOn Copyright
    Quote from Elsia »

    <omgz offtopic>
    Nah not really. Really you interpret it as an underhanded attempt to do that, but there are multiple interpretations, for example one that simply asks: "Who has information that can settle this for us." A qualified lawyer isn't a horrible source to consider for this.


    I believe wholeheartedly that she was indeed asking it from a position of "you don't know wtf you're talking about." Most people do not genuinely ask such questions without qualifying them with assurances of genuine curiosity.

    Obviously I can't prove that's so any more than she can prove it isn't. However, my life experiences (including having asked loaded questions like that myself) lead me to assume a high probability that it is the way I assumed it is.

    Finally: "Your attitude seems to stem more from a lack of self esteem than anything." is a rhetorical fallacy too... don't second-guess other people's intentions or esteem. It's personal and hence ad hominem. Bam's self-esteem is fine as I see it. ;)


    And I never tried to represent it any other way :) (hence "seems")

    All in all, I think you just proved we agree :P
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on AddOn Copyright
    Quote from Bam »

    It surprises me that some addon developers think copyright is so important for addons. If you want to explain to me why you think it is important, I am all ears.


    Addons are software. Do you feel that way about all software? If so then that's fine and I'll stop. I just take serious issue with you dismissing the efforts of addon authors as trivial for no other reason than the platform on which the software runs.
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on AddOn Copyright
    Quote from Bam »

    We are artists? :P

    Seriously, I have put little to no thought into licensing and copyrights in the context developing addons for WoW. My guess is that this is true for most addon developers.


    But some of them have. What's your point?

    The whole concept of copyrights for something as insignificant as addons seems silly to me.


    If you think hundreds of thousands of lines of code and close to a million users (for some addons) is insignificant then you need a reality check. Even some of the simpler mods have more work put into them than many simple freeware windows apps. Why does the context of WoW make any of this less valuable?

    Your attitude seems to stem more from a lack of self esteem than anything. Yes, when you write an addon you are creating a work of art.
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on AddOn Copyright
    Quote from Elsia »

    Not really an appeal to authority fallacy.


    Quote from Cogwheel »
    is related to


    Appeal to authority tries to prove a point by using the status of someone else who has made an argument.

    Asking if any of us is a lawyer is an underhanded attempt to remove credibility because we aren't "authorities."

    They're two sides of the same coin.
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on AddOn Copyright
    Quote from Moon Witch »
    Holy macaroni ... It's an interesting conversation going on here, but all this legal talk brings me to one question? Which one of you guys is actually a lawyer who specifically deals with copyright infringement? Since everyone seems to have various defnitions of it (hell, I too have my own thoughts about what exactly it is.).


    Your question is irrelevant (and is related to the Appeal to Authority logical fallacy). Lawyers disagree on things like this too. You don't need to be a lawyer to understand the law any more than you need to be a raider to understand a class' mechanics. All a law degree does is give you the privilege to take the bar exam.
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on AddOn Copyright
    Quote from Malcolm »

    Actually, in this case they wouldn't. The original data source is publishing the exact same data that each client has, they wouldn't be able to sue based on the availability of the information. Remember we're talking about information here not the display.


    No we're not. We're talking source code. It was the copying of the contents of Mazzle's Lua file that's at issue.

    I'm not ignoring your previous comments, and your right if the data was originally created by the author then he would have a case. I'm still pounding on the point that the original data source is still the public domain, as Blizzard has allowed it to be there, and that even if this addon author manipulates the data it's not his to copyright.


    And you're still missing the point that it's not the data we're talking about. It's the source code.

    This is incorrect. If his copyrighted content were on the site (his addon package) and he requested his software to be removed, after confirming his identity, the site owners would be required to remove that content. In this case the author of the addon is not the person requesting content removal. In this case the copyright owner must present proof of ownership before the site owner is required to take down the content. That is, if the content is indeed protected under copyright which I do not believe it is.


    First off, the copyright owner has every right to request the mods remove his work. If you stole something from me and gave it to someone else, I would have the right to take it from them. Second, let me say this once more to make sure it doesn't get missed: it's NOT THE DATA that is copyrighted, it's the Lua files.
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on AddOn Copyright
    Quote from Philosound »

    If everyone is talking legal, would there not have to be sueing involved before anyone would *have* to take an addon down?


    Not really. You are obligated to drive within the speed limit even when cops aren't around. WoWAce is obligated to remove copyrighted works whether you sue them or not. Suing is simply a remedy for when they don't act the way they're supposed to.
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on AddOn Copyright
    Quote from Elsia »

    Depends how "fair" his use was. Copying sections of a book is fine to a rather nebulous point.




    I'm aware of fair use. His statements didn't make any qualifications as to how much he was copying.

    But i don't see the point in your post... you seemed to have missed the ";P" at the end of mine...
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on AddOn Copyright
    Quote from tekkub »

    I spent a decent chunk of my time working at the school library photocopying textbooks. $5 was a much more reasonable price than $100+ for something I bearly used.


    I believe the publisher could sue your school for letting you do that ;P
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on AddOn Copyright
    Quote from Malcolm »
    I see a parallel argument between WoWHead, WoWDB, Thottbot, etc etc. All these sites have access to central information (World of Warcraft) and each other. If anyone of the sites started datamining each other would you be able to sue them?


    Yes. They would be able to sue each other if they started mining from each other, but they would have to show that the offending party did indeed copy the data from them rather than mining it themselves.

    Even if they copied the same data structure, like how WoWHead and WoWDB are very similar, the data is still in public domain.

    The data source, even if manipulated, is still public domain data.
    In your example I'd be able to change the table structure and everything would be fine. This does not strengthen your argument.


    Except you ignore my other posts that have said derivative works are equally covered. If you can show that the data was indeed copied and reformatted, then it would be judged a violation of copyright. If you can't prove it then... well... innocent until proven guilty prevails.

    You seem to think I'm contradicting myself when I'm not.
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on AddOn Copyright
    Quote from HunterZ »

    It sounds to me like the main problem is that both addon authors are lacking in both social skills and a sense of civility.


    Whether that's true or not is entirely irrelevant to the "main problem." The main problem is that one person violated the copyright of another. When this violation was made known, nothing was done about it. Your personal opinions of the character of the parties involved has no bearing on the discussion except to incite hostility.

    It also sounds like Benumbed, while clearly in the wrong originally and being a repeat offender, made a good-faith effort to resolve the situation by working to remove any dependencies on Mazzle's data. If this is true, and Mazzle is still seeking action, then it's pretty much just a grudge at this point.


    I don't see Mazzle doing anything right now. This discussion is about an article describing events that took place in the past. We're not arguing that Mazzle should keep or refrain from doing something right now, we're arguing the merits of what he tried to do before.

    It's an interesting topic for a general discussion though. Personally I think that it's a bit silly to try to retain too much control over derivatives of freeware open-source software, in the sense that you shouldn't be investing significant amounts of time in it if you care about being "ripped off". Of course, it's still extreme douchebaggery for someone to take something you spent a lot of time on and redistribute it without at least giving credit.


    You suffer from a misconception that I see a lot in this community. Just because addons are necessarily distributed as source code does NOT make them "open source." Again, look at books... All the words are printed plain as day for anyone to type up or photocopy. That doesn't give you the right to do so.
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on AddOn Copyright
    Quote from Malcolm »

    Right, the data was taken from 3rd party API, translated and sized, then stored. Those operations on that data also can not be copyrighted.


    Actually, that's exactly what CAN be copyrighted. You can't copyright the data itself, it's the physical expression of the data that is copyrighted. The actual Lua code that mazzle created is what's at issue here. If you went and mined the data yourself and created the table yourself, it wouldn't be a violation of copyright.

    It doesn't matter if that data was changed 'by hand' or by a computer program, the data origins are from an outside source and are freely available. The author(s) of the addon do not own the data in question.


    To reiterate and put another way, Mazzle doesn't have copyright over the information itself, only the manner in which it is manifested.
    Posted in: General Chat
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