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The only thing you omit is Effort versus Deadline (a big omission). Rarely should reducing amount of effort be the only reason a software development approach is chosen when end-user impact is likely to happen due to an impending (hard) deadline.
It is evident that the effort to do everything Antiarc wanted to do did not fit within the timeline for a realistic release versus when users would want it. In a real world situation, this would be a big issue, and would likely not happen as the deadline considerations would have been enforced versus effort.
The only real question is whether the deadline left enough time to even fix Omen1 in the first place. *IF* it did, then the wrong choice was made...if it didn't, then the right choice was to go ahead and do the pie-in-the-sky new version. I won't pretend to answer this as I don't know the code in question. What I do know is Software management/development is not about amount of effort in any realistic situation...its all about minimizing effort within a deadline window.
You're right - I didn't mention deadline. Antiarc had ideas of Omen2 floating around his head since the news about 2.4 came out. As soon as PTR went live, he was on there coding and asking for volunteers to help test. I don't know how many volunteers he got. But I have a question for you, sid. Did *you* know the exact date 2.4 was going to hit? With enough prior notice that you would be able to decide to patch up Omen1 or continue with the Omen2 rewrite? I don't think so.
I agree with sid, but this is not a real world situation, in a real world situation you would have done a ton of testing before release, in this situation that's not even possible. You cannot test every single aspect of a threat meter on ptr, you CAN usually test every aspect of software during development for a company.
Did *you* know the exact date 2.4 was going to hit? With enough prior notice that you would be able to decide to patch up Omen1 or continue with the Omen2 rewrite? I don't think so.
Like I said before, I don't know the code so I cannot speak for effort versus timeline, only that all these discussions ommitted the fact there was a deadline, whether you recogized it or not.
The fact that you don't know the exact date of the deadline doesn't change the fact it exists. You have to make educated guesses based on all information you have. After one week on the PTR, everything was pointing to it hitting live before April 1. The rate at which they were axing trash in sunwell to help high end guilds "test" the early sunwell bosses screamed they wanted it out quickly.
So to answer your question about dates, no I didn't know the exact date, *BUT*, I knew it was April 1 plus/minus a week...I'm sure you knew this as well. The fact we didn't know the *exact* date is irrelevant. We knew an approximate date, and that date should have been factored.
As it stands, it appears to me Omen2 will be 1-2 more weeks before fully back to the reliable state it was before. That is a full month beyond what 90% of people believed would be the 2.4 release date. People are unhappy because something they rely on no longer works. People don't care about "features" when it boils down to it works or it doesn't.
The primary objective for 2.4 should have just been to get the combat log to work. I'm sorry if you don't agree, but the fact of the matter is almost everyone I know agrees with me.
Being a developer myself, I understand your position. This is just a side job/hobby code effort for you, and had I been in your place, I probably would have considered reducing the effort and tossing all the bells and whistles in. But I'd have decided against it knowing the absolute insane backlash all the non-devs would thrash about with if I didn't make the 2.4 release date (which is where we are).
There really isn't anything you can do about it now other than push forward as efficiently as possible and fight through the noise.
no I didn't know the exact date, *BUT*, I knew it was April 1 plus/minus a week...I'm sure you knew this as well.
Hind-sight is such a wonderful thing ...
(for me the ptr was a series of crashes, server going up and down like an elevator,
finally becoming a 6GB lua compiler when they removed all npcs for the final stages of testing leaving me with an empty world)
Quote from sid »
I'm sorry if you don't agree, but the fact of the matter is almost everyone I know agrees with me.
You need to get out more.
Or meet the people I know since they ALL agree with me!.
(Not really, but my statement has the same value as yours: "none").
Quote from sid »
push forward as efficiently as possible and fight through the noise.
I can't test everything. I don't have 9 level 70s across 3 accounts that I can transfer to the PTR. I don't have a full raid at my beck and call to test a specific raid fight or a high-traffic situation any time I want it.
I asked for testing on the PTR, and I got some, but obviously not nearly enough. 2.4's live release basically gave me the tester base I needed, and as such, I've been able to find and fix problems.
ThreatLib and Omen are both very complex beasts, and without good testing, they're bound to have a plethora of bugs. If we want to apply "deadline" to this whole situation, then let's consider that deadlines generally include time for a QA round.
I can't test everything. I don't have 9 level 70s across 3 accounts that I can transfer to the PTR. I don't have a full raid at my beck and call to test a specific raid fight or a high-traffic situation any time I want it.
I asked for testing on the PTR, and I got some, but obviously not nearly enough. 2.4's live release basically gave me the tester base I needed, and as such, I've been able to find and fix problems.
ThreatLib and Omen are both very complex beasts, and without good testing, they're bound to have a plethora of bugs. If we want to apply "deadline" to this whole situation, then let's consider that deadlines generally include time for a QA round.
Hey Antiarc,
I know I've made some hard comments in another thread (hey 30 hrs awake does that), but what do you need of info to get more bugs out. Eg. A combat log of everything (no filters)? revision numbers? Setup, other addons? Just let me know, my guild generally runs kara every week, gruuls and ZA have been added to the list - provided our tanks come back from freaking vacation :P
Generally, a bug report with a screenshot or stack trace (as appropriate) with the revision number it occurred with (and the revision numbers of any other party members if they are included in the bug report) is sufficient.
God what is it with you people? Requiring that Antiarc should have done this and that. "damn i cant raid coz my threatmeter doesnt work".
If you guys are that eager to have a working Threatmeter to do help you out, pay Antiarc, give him money and then start talking about deadlines. Geez!
God what is it with you people? Requiring that Antiarc should have done this and that. "damn i cant raid coz my threatmeter doesnt work".
If you guys are that eager to have a working Threatmeter to do help you out, pay Antiarc, give him money and then start talking about deadlines. Geez!
BTW great work done you coders! Antiarc etc :)
correct. thanks for omen. People shouldn't complain that much. The time they waste here, writing complains could be far better used in helping you out (with detailed bug reports, or whatever).
Personally, the time "without" omen showed me, that raiding without a threatmeter is still quite possible, just not that efficient.
"push forward as efficiently as possible and fight through the noise." <- !
I can't test everything. I don't have 9 level 70s across 3 accounts that I can transfer to the PTR. I don't have a full raid at my beck and call to test a specific raid fight or a high-traffic situation any time I want it.
I asked for testing on the PTR, and I got some, but obviously not nearly enough. 2.4's live release basically gave me the tester base I needed, and as such, I've been able to find and fix problems.
ThreatLib and Omen are both very complex beasts, and without good testing, they're bound to have a plethora of bugs. If we want to apply "deadline" to this whole situation, then let's consider that deadlines generally include time for a QA round.
I noticed in the EJ thread that you didn't cross out "Elemental Shaman with Lightning Overload procs". Do you still need a log of those?
So to answer your question about dates, no I didn't know the exact date, *BUT*, I knew it was April 1 plus/minus a week...I'm sure you knew this as well. The fact we didn't know the *exact* date is irrelevant. We knew an approximate date, and that date should have been factored.
I won't comment on any of the whining and crying in here, because being a developer myself, I know I'll get too pissed off while writing a reply to that nonsense.
I will however say this: How come you and 90% of "the people" "knew" this, whereas I and anyone I know who has been on the PTR figured it would still several weeks due to the fact that Blizzard screwed a lot of things up (apart from API problems, there's still issues in the game itself)?
They've pushed out crap patches too soon before, but this one they really rushed. I honestly did not expect them to push this one out so soon, as there is absolutely no rush for them since it's the last patch?
On topic: Omen2 works fine for us, had a few problems in the first few raids last week, but everything has settled down. Cleared through MH and BT this week without any problems anywhere, only weird thing is that I seem to be doing more threat than before :P
Silly fury warrior threat, good thing our tanks win ^^
I won't comment on any of the whining and crying in here, because being a developer myself, I know I'll get too pissed off while writing a reply to that nonsense.
I will however say this: How come you and 90% of "the people" "knew" this, whereas I and anyone I know who has been on the PTR figured it would still several weeks due to the fact that Blizzard screwed a lot of things up (apart from API problems, there's still issues in the game itself)?
They've pushed out crap patches too soon before, but this one they really rushed. I honestly did not expect them to push this one out so soon, as there is absolutely no rush for them since it's the last patch?
On topic: Omen2 works fine for us, had a few problems in the first few raids last week, but everything has settled down. Cleared through MH and BT this week without any problems anywhere, only weird thing is that I seem to be doing more threat than before :P
Silly fury warrior threat, good thing our tanks win ^^
I totally agree with crap patches, I mean the "chatlog settings" bullshit, for me it still isn't saving. And is getting on my nerves big times. Thanks to Tek it's at least not resetting anymore. And on Omen2, yes, if you rely heavily on it, it is annoying, but for me - pally healer - I just wait a bit to start healing and never start with Holy Light, generally I will try to slap Gift of the Naaru on the MT, that generally gives me enough time (I do it before he jumps into the fight). I have my eyes fixed on a shitload of healthbars, so honestly looking over at Omen, I rarely do. (Grid for me, is set to still show aggro though, which is handy when a mob switches target)
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Curse PremiumYou're right - I didn't mention deadline. Antiarc had ideas of Omen2 floating around his head since the news about 2.4 came out. As soon as PTR went live, he was on there coding and asking for volunteers to help test. I don't know how many volunteers he got. But I have a question for you, sid. Did *you* know the exact date 2.4 was going to hit? With enough prior notice that you would be able to decide to patch up Omen1 or continue with the Omen2 rewrite? I don't think so.
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Forum ModeratorLike I said before, I don't know the code so I cannot speak for effort versus timeline, only that all these discussions ommitted the fact there was a deadline, whether you recogized it or not.
The fact that you don't know the exact date of the deadline doesn't change the fact it exists. You have to make educated guesses based on all information you have. After one week on the PTR, everything was pointing to it hitting live before April 1. The rate at which they were axing trash in sunwell to help high end guilds "test" the early sunwell bosses screamed they wanted it out quickly.
So to answer your question about dates, no I didn't know the exact date, *BUT*, I knew it was April 1 plus/minus a week...I'm sure you knew this as well. The fact we didn't know the *exact* date is irrelevant. We knew an approximate date, and that date should have been factored.
As it stands, it appears to me Omen2 will be 1-2 more weeks before fully back to the reliable state it was before. That is a full month beyond what 90% of people believed would be the 2.4 release date. People are unhappy because something they rely on no longer works. People don't care about "features" when it boils down to it works or it doesn't.
The primary objective for 2.4 should have just been to get the combat log to work. I'm sorry if you don't agree, but the fact of the matter is almost everyone I know agrees with me.
Being a developer myself, I understand your position. This is just a side job/hobby code effort for you, and had I been in your place, I probably would have considered reducing the effort and tossing all the bells and whistles in. But I'd have decided against it knowing the absolute insane backlash all the non-devs would thrash about with if I didn't make the 2.4 release date (which is where we are).
There really isn't anything you can do about it now other than push forward as efficiently as possible and fight through the noise.
Hind-sight is such a wonderful thing ...
(for me the ptr was a series of crashes, server going up and down like an elevator,
finally becoming a 6GB lua compiler when they removed all npcs for the final stages of testing leaving me with an empty world)
You need to get out more.
Or meet the people I know since they ALL agree with me!.
(Not really, but my statement has the same value as yours: "none").
Summarizes your fud nicely.
All this "deadline" BS falls pretty much flat on it's face when we're talking about a video game addon that nobody's getting paid for... :P
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Curse PremiumTesting.
I can't test everything. I don't have 9 level 70s across 3 accounts that I can transfer to the PTR. I don't have a full raid at my beck and call to test a specific raid fight or a high-traffic situation any time I want it.
I asked for testing on the PTR, and I got some, but obviously not nearly enough. 2.4's live release basically gave me the tester base I needed, and as such, I've been able to find and fix problems.
ThreatLib and Omen are both very complex beasts, and without good testing, they're bound to have a plethora of bugs. If we want to apply "deadline" to this whole situation, then let's consider that deadlines generally include time for a QA round.
Hey Antiarc,
I know I've made some hard comments in another thread (hey 30 hrs awake does that), but what do you need of info to get more bugs out. Eg. A combat log of everything (no filters)? revision numbers? Setup, other addons? Just let me know, my guild generally runs kara every week, gruuls and ZA have been added to the list - provided our tanks come back from freaking vacation :P
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Curse PremiumIf you guys are that eager to have a working Threatmeter to do help you out, pay Antiarc, give him money and then start talking about deadlines. Geez!
BTW great work done you coders! Antiarc etc :)
correct. thanks for omen. People shouldn't complain that much. The time they waste here, writing complains could be far better used in helping you out (with detailed bug reports, or whatever).
Personally, the time "without" omen showed me, that raiding without a threatmeter is still quite possible, just not that efficient.
"push forward as efficiently as possible and fight through the noise." <- !
I noticed in the EJ thread that you didn't cross out "Elemental Shaman with Lightning Overload procs". Do you still need a log of those?
I won't comment on any of the whining and crying in here, because being a developer myself, I know I'll get too pissed off while writing a reply to that nonsense.
I will however say this: How come you and 90% of "the people" "knew" this, whereas I and anyone I know who has been on the PTR figured it would still several weeks due to the fact that Blizzard screwed a lot of things up (apart from API problems, there's still issues in the game itself)?
They've pushed out crap patches too soon before, but this one they really rushed. I honestly did not expect them to push this one out so soon, as there is absolutely no rush for them since it's the last patch?
On topic: Omen2 works fine for us, had a few problems in the first few raids last week, but everything has settled down. Cleared through MH and BT this week without any problems anywhere, only weird thing is that I seem to be doing more threat than before :P
Silly fury warrior threat, good thing our tanks win ^^
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Curse PremiumNah, I got them sorted. Just forgot to update the thread. :)
I totally agree with crap patches, I mean the "chatlog settings" bullshit, for me it still isn't saving. And is getting on my nerves big times. Thanks to Tek it's at least not resetting anymore. And on Omen2, yes, if you rely heavily on it, it is annoying, but for me - pally healer - I just wait a bit to start healing and never start with Holy Light, generally I will try to slap Gift of the Naaru on the MT, that generally gives me enough time (I do it before he jumps into the fight). I have my eyes fixed on a shitload of healthbars, so honestly looking over at Omen, I rarely do. (Grid for me, is set to still show aggro though, which is handy when a mob switches target)