I am in the process of setting up a dkp system for my guild. We will be using an epgp system. Dkp will be awarded every half hour to the people in the raid and people on standby. I had planned on using an item point calculator like hellbender dkp to calculate item points. It looks like the average dkp cost for a karazhan item is 40-60 dkp. Some of the better items in the game are valued at a little over 100 dkp. I also want to encourage people to help gear up the undergeared people in karazha. If they help in karazhan they earn dkp that they can use in gruul or ssc. What is a good ammount of dkp given per hour? Im using dkpmon and some of the default values are 100 dkp an hour. That would make a 4 hour raid (our typical raid night is 4 hours) equal to 400 dkp which just seems like more points than necessary.
I am in the process of setting up a dkp system for my guild. We will be using an epgp system. Dkp will be awarded every half hour to the people in the raid and people on standby. I had planned on using an item point calculator like hellbender dkp to calculate item points. It looks like the average dkp cost for a karazhan item is 40-60 dkp. Some of the better items in the game are valued at a little over 100 dkp. I also want to encourage people to help gear up the undergeared people in karazha. If they help in karazhan they earn dkp that they can use in gruul or ssc. What is a good ammount of dkp given per hour? Im using dkpmon and some of the default values are 100 dkp an hour. That would make a 4 hour raid (our typical raid night is 4 hours) equal to 400 dkp which just seems like more points than necessary.
If you're not planning on using a zero sum DKP system you should not use fixed prices for your items. You need a regulation system to avoid inflation/deflation of the iLevel to DKP points ratio. If you insist on using non zero-sum consider using a bidding system or you will run into problems...
If you're not planning on using a zero sum DKP system you should not use fixed prices for your items. You need a regulation system to avoid inflation/deflation of the iLevel to DKP points ratio. If you insist on using non zero-sum consider using a bidding system or you will run into problems...
Im not sure what you mean by fixed prices. each item has a price that is calculated based on the stats. Thats what the hellbender addon does. Two different dps bracers from kara could have very different point values. I was planning on using the epgp plugin with dkpmon. Every week there will be a 10% decay on the dkp database as well.
Never make a DKP System dependant on mods if you are not coding it yourself....
DKP per hour should be only given for progress raids(means trash+bosses you didnt kill yet)
DKP per Bosskill includes trash/wiping in the DKP Value the boss gives at the end, if people need 10wipes instead of oneshotting him it should never give more DKP in the end rather less :P
Fixed Item prices suck, especially being depended on mods for calculating it. Another thing is such a mod will never rate weird Use: Equip: Bonuses such as from Lightning Capacitor correctly...
Just set a fixed minium for each item, like the DKP you earn for a 1hr progress raid or 30mins and do biddings on items public or private doesnt really matter your choice.
And i would also think about dividing the DKP Systems like this:
Kara/Gruul/Mag
SSC/TK
Hyjal/BT
So the DKP values dont go in the "millions" after some time and people get more DKP from 1 easy TK boss than from whole Karazhan etc. for example.
Its also the order you will stop doing the encounters. Kara first, then Gruul/Mag, after that you stop doing regularly SSC/TK just to attune more people and then you just focus on Hyjal/BT.
[font=Verdana][color=blue]"Never make a DKP System dependant on mods if you are not coding it yourself...."[/font]
The dkp system itself is a mod. How is that any different? Are we all supposed to be wrting our own dkp mods?
[color=blue]"DKP per hour should be only given for progress raids(means trash+bosses you didnt kill yet)
DKP per Bosskill includes trash/wiping in the DKP Value the boss gives at the end, if people need 10wipes instead of oneshotting him it should never give more DKP in the end rather less"
[/color]
Thats one way to look at it. EP/GP is an efort points gear point system. The effort you put forth to help the guild on raid nights. People that do not show up for raid nights dont get points and in turn will end up not getting gear. People that show up and participate will get points that can be spent on gear. We have people that will not show up for 3 weeks then all of a sudden get in a raid and get gear from a random roll. This is not fair. The people that help the guild should be getting the gear and the ammount of EP you have is directly proportional to how much you have helped.
[color=blue]And i would also think about dividing the DKP Systems like this:
Kara/Gruul/Mag
SSC/TK
Hyjal/BT[/color]
We have some people that need gear from karazhan still. Some of us will run the undergeared people through karazhan to gear them up for 25 man content. It is getting more difficult to run a karazhan group because not enough of the geared people are helping out. I want one pool of points. I'd like the geared people that put forth the effort to help on the karazhan runs to get Effort Points that they can use in 25 man content.
[color=blue]So the DKP values dont go in the "millions" after some time and people get more DKP from 1 easy TK boss than from whole Karazhan etc. for[/color]
Points cant go into the millions because of the decay built into the ep/gp system.
We use a system similar to epgp with a sliding window. Old raids slowly slide out of the windowed view and are no longer counted. Allows for players to not be forever "punished" because they picked up off-spec items, etc.
Players are awarded points for the time spent raiding with us and being available to raid. This allows for people who are forced to sit out to still earn points. It also encourages everyone to show up. If you show up and stay available, you get points.
We award extra bonus points for especially hard wipe nights, content learning (glass chewing), and first time new boss kills. We do not award points for regular boss kills.
We never charged a cost for Karazhan, instead viewing it as an UBRS style instance. We plan the same for Zul'Aman. We just charged a cost for items from 25 man raids. As we progressed from T4 to T5, we dropped the cost of all T4 items to make them still appealing. As we went from T5 to T6, we did the same again.
This is not a perfect system, no loot system is. Currently we are looking at some issues like 2H Weapons costing the same as 1H weapons, etc.
Just find something that your guild feels is fair and meets the needs of as many of your members as possible.
I don't like bidding for items, tbh.
Just a personal thing, but anytime I saw it used, it never quite worked out.
So yeah... we use percentual costs. Still tweaking it a bit left and right, but overall it's the smartest approach I've seen yet, as the cost auto-balances against the intake, and once people start thinking about "relative buying power" instead of "flat DKP amount" they got, it's very very easy to use.
Our system uses an EPGP system. The beauty of EPGP is that with gear prices (GP) being relational to the earned points (EP) you really don't care how many points you give out for anything. Everything is normalized over time through the inverse of GP as well as the decay.
That is the main thing you have to utilize is the DECAY for both EP and GP in your system...as not doing it frequently enough gives some high numbers and the people winning loot will never normalize back into range to get more loot.
We currently utilize a 10% decay for 25-man raids and recently started ZA and Kara into the system as we were having too many issues with just /random loot and a council-based system. With 10-mans I've been decaying 10% every 3 days which is roughly a 4% decay...but will probably increase that to 5% each day...as most of our 10-man raids are 50% of the costs.
As to what your points are, the GP costs are built into the system, so you don't have to worry about those. I try to make 25-man raids give out 100 points per run...so depending on what you're clearing at the time, price boss kills accordingly and then make up the difference over time. For us we give out 15 points per hour as most of our raids are 3 hours. I also give an on-time (25 points) bonus as well as a crusader bonus (staying the entire raid - 10 points)...and a few other bonuses. Again, with an EPGP system and gear being relational, you can add as many or as little points as you want and not have to worry about inflation or anything else with the built-in decay.
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If you're not planning on using a zero sum DKP system you should not use fixed prices for your items. You need a regulation system to avoid inflation/deflation of the iLevel to DKP points ratio. If you insist on using non zero-sum consider using a bidding system or you will run into problems...
Im not sure what you mean by fixed prices. each item has a price that is calculated based on the stats. Thats what the hellbender addon does. Two different dps bracers from kara could have very different point values. I was planning on using the epgp plugin with dkpmon. Every week there will be a 10% decay on the dkp database as well.
DKP per hour should be only given for progress raids(means trash+bosses you didnt kill yet)
DKP per Bosskill includes trash/wiping in the DKP Value the boss gives at the end, if people need 10wipes instead of oneshotting him it should never give more DKP in the end rather less :P
Fixed Item prices suck, especially being depended on mods for calculating it. Another thing is such a mod will never rate weird Use: Equip: Bonuses such as from Lightning Capacitor correctly...
Just set a fixed minium for each item, like the DKP you earn for a 1hr progress raid or 30mins and do biddings on items public or private doesnt really matter your choice.
And i would also think about dividing the DKP Systems like this:
Kara/Gruul/Mag
SSC/TK
Hyjal/BT
So the DKP values dont go in the "millions" after some time and people get more DKP from 1 easy TK boss than from whole Karazhan etc. for example.
Its also the order you will stop doing the encounters. Kara first, then Gruul/Mag, after that you stop doing regularly SSC/TK just to attune more people and then you just focus on Hyjal/BT.
The dkp system itself is a mod. How is that any different? Are we all supposed to be wrting our own dkp mods?
[color=blue]"DKP per hour should be only given for progress raids(means trash+bosses you didnt kill yet)
DKP per Bosskill includes trash/wiping in the DKP Value the boss gives at the end, if people need 10wipes instead of oneshotting him it should never give more DKP in the end rather less"
[/color]
Thats one way to look at it. EP/GP is an efort points gear point system. The effort you put forth to help the guild on raid nights. People that do not show up for raid nights dont get points and in turn will end up not getting gear. People that show up and participate will get points that can be spent on gear. We have people that will not show up for 3 weeks then all of a sudden get in a raid and get gear from a random roll. This is not fair. The people that help the guild should be getting the gear and the ammount of EP you have is directly proportional to how much you have helped.
[color=blue]And i would also think about dividing the DKP Systems like this:
Kara/Gruul/Mag
SSC/TK
Hyjal/BT[/color]
We have some people that need gear from karazhan still. Some of us will run the undergeared people through karazhan to gear them up for 25 man content. It is getting more difficult to run a karazhan group because not enough of the geared people are helping out. I want one pool of points. I'd like the geared people that put forth the effort to help on the karazhan runs to get Effort Points that they can use in 25 man content.
[color=blue]So the DKP values dont go in the "millions" after some time and people get more DKP from 1 easy TK boss than from whole Karazhan etc. for[/color]
Points cant go into the millions because of the decay built into the ep/gp system.
Players are awarded points for the time spent raiding with us and being available to raid. This allows for people who are forced to sit out to still earn points. It also encourages everyone to show up. If you show up and stay available, you get points.
We award extra bonus points for especially hard wipe nights, content learning (glass chewing), and first time new boss kills. We do not award points for regular boss kills.
We never charged a cost for Karazhan, instead viewing it as an UBRS style instance. We plan the same for Zul'Aman. We just charged a cost for items from 25 man raids. As we progressed from T4 to T5, we dropped the cost of all T4 items to make them still appealing. As we went from T5 to T6, we did the same again.
This is not a perfect system, no loot system is. Currently we are looking at some issues like 2H Weapons costing the same as 1H weapons, etc.
Just find something that your guild feels is fair and meets the needs of as many of your members as possible.
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Curse Premiumin a 40 man raid you had a Lynch Mob to deal with where it was Bizzness.
With 25 & 10 man raids it's a family, if you can't figure out that you need to help one another in raids & not be an absolute dick about loot.
if you cannot Learn how to be a team player and SUFFER though it all so that the raid can progress, then u don't belong there.
"You Live for the Raid, you Die for the Raid, or the Raid Dies"
Love that quote.
Just a personal thing, but anytime I saw it used, it never quite worked out.
So yeah... we use percentual costs. Still tweaking it a bit left and right, but overall it's the smartest approach I've seen yet, as the cost auto-balances against the intake, and once people start thinking about "relative buying power" instead of "flat DKP amount" they got, it's very very easy to use.
That is the main thing you have to utilize is the DECAY for both EP and GP in your system...as not doing it frequently enough gives some high numbers and the people winning loot will never normalize back into range to get more loot.
We currently utilize a 10% decay for 25-man raids and recently started ZA and Kara into the system as we were having too many issues with just /random loot and a council-based system. With 10-mans I've been decaying 10% every 3 days which is roughly a 4% decay...but will probably increase that to 5% each day...as most of our 10-man raids are 50% of the costs.
As to what your points are, the GP costs are built into the system, so you don't have to worry about those. I try to make 25-man raids give out 100 points per run...so depending on what you're clearing at the time, price boss kills accordingly and then make up the difference over time. For us we give out 15 points per hour as most of our raids are 3 hours. I also give an on-time (25 points) bonus as well as a crusader bonus (staying the entire raid - 10 points)...and a few other bonuses. Again, with an EPGP system and gear being relational, you can add as many or as little points as you want and not have to worry about inflation or anything else with the built-in decay.