Having to go to a site to download KTM threat meter upgrades is getting slightly annoying, and I'm wondering if there's any threat meter alternative, or version of KTM working with Ace and/or the updater? Thanks in advance :).
The thing about KTM is that it only displays threat for those in the raid that have it. Also, it is EXTREMELY complex and difficult to make a threat meter addon. The author(s) of KTM take every ability/item in the game and assign it a value for threat. It's a huge database that takes a lot of guesswork, testing, more testing, etc. It's been discussed before, but I think it's been decided that it's not really worth it.
If you try it on the PTR with some of the mods that can give you performance details, It looks like it does quite a bit of stuff OnUpdate and worse all the time even when not in combat and not in a raid etc. It's due for an overhaul/rewrite as it just grew organically over time with a build and fix approach. However finding someone who has enough spare time and dedication to do it... good luck.
A lot of devs on this board find KLHTM to be taking addons too far. There will always be the "lern2play" flames, but in the end it's not a vital mod. It can be useful to learn how threat works, but should not be relied upon as a "required" mod. For those guilds out there that want to force their members to use this, there are alternatives to make them *think* you have it installed.
KTM is a fairly significant part of high-end raiding (not a "required" part, but a huge benefit). Also, installing some kind of "spoof" addon that displays fake threat data would be trivial to spot when the wrong person is pulling agro, etc, and besides, why in the world would anyone ever want to decieve their own guild like that? PUG's maybe, but come on...
Anyhow, while it would be nice to have KTM "Ace'd", it would be a massive project that I don't think we should expect anyone to do unless they really want to.
A lot of devs on this board find KLHTM to be taking addons too far. There will always be the "lern2play" flames, but in the end it's not a vital mod.
I've found it invaluable, as a mage. It's simply incredible the amount of threat different tanks create. With KTM I know right off the bat how hard I can DPS, rather than experimenting with each new tank I play with.
A lot of devs on this board find KLHTM to be taking addons too far. There will always be the "lern2play" flames, but in the end it's not a vital mod. It can be useful to learn how threat works, but should not be relied upon as a "required" mod. For those guilds out there that want to force their members to use this, there are alternatives to make them *think* you have it installed.
i used to think this, but since TBC in many ways it is blizzard's fault for completely screwing up agro, that so many end game raid guilds feel this is a requirement, my guild being 1 of them, had to cave into using this.
I would like a mod that displays the button I should be pressing next, when to press it, and if possible, the button after? Also, I want it to notify my guildies in every channel possible what button they should be pressing too. I simply can't trust people I hand selected to be capable... it's just such a failing with these online games. I'm incapable of observing the gameworld, my party members, or my own abilities, and would prefer to have an addon that did everything for me. Prior to 2.0, I had this wonderful addon that played the game for me, so long as I kept pressing "1" while watching the latest riveting episode of Survivor. Now that I've upgraded to watching Lost, I simply must have this functionality replaced.
Seriously, aggro is the biggest variable in the game. The less predictable it is, the more entertaining the game becomes. If I wanted to play a game of chess with an AI that makes the same moves every game, I'd go play with my sister or something.
We're still holding out.
<Wall of Text Warning> (don't you miss karma when you see a post like this?)
There were a few encounters pre-TBC that would benefit from a threatmeter.. mainly those with artificial time-constraints + taunt immunity / aggro-wipes,
in all tiers of raiding.
The kind of fights that said: "pull aggro and you wipe, fail to kill x in 10min and you wipe". (Hakkar, Vael etc).
There's similar fights in BC from the first tier (eg. Curator) and probably all the way up. (and taunt immunity is the norm, not the exception).
We've had zero problems to deal with anything we've come across without threatmeters both upto tier2 raiding pre-BC and currently.
KTM is just fast becoming one of the "token" requirements of template raid-guilds.
My apprehension about it comes on 2 distinct and somewhat unrelated levels.
KTM is to aggro management what the old decursive was to debuff removal.
A shortcut road to adequacy for lack of proper teamplay and individual shortcomings.
(which is a strong proponent of the addon for guilds that want to recruit and have a decently performing raider "fast").
Secondly aggro management is a team-function.
A tank caught in a TPS race (tps = threat per second) is like a racehorse that can only run in a straight line.
Tanking is keeping damage away from your team. Being highest on threat is only one way of doing that.
KTM is a crutch that might help you get from 0 to 3 fast but then becomes a liability when you need to go to 7.
It promotes linear thinking when the trend is for encounters that need you to be devious.
Lastly KTM is reverse engineering server variables that are not exposed in the game client.
It's doing it in a legal lua environment and using legitimate means, but it's still overstepping the boundaries of UI modification in concept (opinion).
Those values are datamined (by compiling thousands of test results), you don't see ability x does y amount of threat anywhere on the client.
(much unlike damage/heals and many of the variables directly available from combatlogs etc)
Anyway, whatever argument does not matter much.
Guild leadership that consider their members tools (corporate mentality in a virtual world), will turn to whatever (they believe) can provide the fastest route to progress (productivity).
Their best members do not need it anyway, but they're themselves pragmatic (or cynical) enough to not want to impart their hard-earned game savvy to "Joe - new recruit - Random".
(much easier to gear him up, make sure he can spam a couple buttons and watch a few bars and presto you have raider #134415)
You want to know my biggest issue with KLHTM? Since 2.0 there is _NO_ need for the all the addon sync. The API gives full access to what each member is casting, the only data that needs to be exchanged is talents information. But whatever, not like I'm ever going to try to rewrite their addon.
As for replies above, KMFDM does not send data, it simply responds to version queries.
I apologize for my previous post being rather acidic, but when you have to put up with daily complaints from half your guild, most PUGs, and people you don't even know, it gets tiring. As I routinely tank with my druid and two warriors, the whines are non-stop about how I don't use KTM. I mean, for crying out loud, you do not need KTM in RFC!
One thing I never get about the players of this game. They hate "farming" instances, it's boring and trivial and more necessary than ever with Blizzard ingenious (read: stupid) keying system. But they resist anything that would make the instance anything more complex than having epics delivered to their mailbox every Tuesday evening.
I cried when I realized my decade old electronic chess set has a more complex AI than WoW :(.
I cried when I realized my decade old electronic chess set has a more complex AI than WoW :(
It's sad because it's true. 20 years ago I played backgammon games on a C64 against a more formidable AI.
Anyway, on the one hand, I agree that threat meters are unnecessary and can be a crutch. We did aggro-sensitive fights like Hakkar long before a threat meter existed and had no trouble whatsoever. On the other hand, the gamer in me that likes to push everything to the limit likes knowing exactly how much I damage I can squeeze out before I go too far. ::) So I see both sides of it.
I currently have it installed because it seems like a vast majority of people fall into one of two categories:
1. Bad players that lack the common sense to even figure out "zomgstringocritz maybe I should back off a little".
2. Min-maxers who want to squeeze every last tiny bit of DPS they can out of their character.
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Curse PremiumCould you direct me to this sneaky alternative you're mentioning?
http://tekkub-wow.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/KMFDM/
Anyhow, while it would be nice to have KTM "Ace'd", it would be a massive project that I don't think we should expect anyone to do unless they really want to.
I've found it invaluable, as a mage. It's simply incredible the amount of threat different tanks create. With KTM I know right off the bat how hard I can DPS, rather than experimenting with each new tank I play with.
however wenn playing in a pug (what i barley do) or on twink runs it's a benefit to have ;)
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Forum Moderatori used to think this, but since TBC in many ways it is blizzard's fault for completely screwing up agro, that so many end game raid guilds feel this is a requirement, my guild being 1 of them, had to cave into using this.
Seriously, aggro is the biggest variable in the game. The less predictable it is, the more entertaining the game becomes. If I wanted to play a game of chess with an AI that makes the same moves every game, I'd go play with my sister or something.
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Curse PremiumMade me laugh. :)
<Wall of Text Warning> (don't you miss karma when you see a post like this?)
There were a few encounters pre-TBC that would benefit from a threatmeter.. mainly those with artificial time-constraints + taunt immunity / aggro-wipes,
in all tiers of raiding.
The kind of fights that said: "pull aggro and you wipe, fail to kill x in 10min and you wipe". (Hakkar, Vael etc).
There's similar fights in BC from the first tier (eg. Curator) and probably all the way up. (and taunt immunity is the norm, not the exception).
We've had zero problems to deal with anything we've come across without threatmeters both upto tier2 raiding pre-BC and currently.
KTM is just fast becoming one of the "token" requirements of template raid-guilds.
My apprehension about it comes on 2 distinct and somewhat unrelated levels.
KTM is to aggro management what the old decursive was to debuff removal.
A shortcut road to adequacy for lack of proper teamplay and individual shortcomings.
(which is a strong proponent of the addon for guilds that want to recruit and have a decently performing raider "fast").
Secondly aggro management is a team-function.
A tank caught in a TPS race (tps = threat per second) is like a racehorse that can only run in a straight line.
Tanking is keeping damage away from your team. Being highest on threat is only one way of doing that.
KTM is a crutch that might help you get from 0 to 3 fast but then becomes a liability when you need to go to 7.
It promotes linear thinking when the trend is for encounters that need you to be devious.
Lastly KTM is reverse engineering server variables that are not exposed in the game client.
It's doing it in a legal lua environment and using legitimate means, but it's still overstepping the boundaries of UI modification in concept (opinion).
Those values are datamined (by compiling thousands of test results), you don't see ability x does y amount of threat anywhere on the client.
(much unlike damage/heals and many of the variables directly available from combatlogs etc)
Anyway, whatever argument does not matter much.
Guild leadership that consider their members tools (corporate mentality in a virtual world), will turn to whatever (they believe) can provide the fastest route to progress (productivity).
Their best members do not need it anyway, but they're themselves pragmatic (or cynical) enough to not want to impart their hard-earned game savvy to "Joe - new recruit - Random".
(much easier to gear him up, make sure he can spam a couple buttons and watch a few bars and presto you have raider #134415)
As for replies above, KMFDM does not send data, it simply responds to version queries.
One thing I never get about the players of this game. They hate "farming" instances, it's boring and trivial and more necessary than ever with Blizzard ingenious (read: stupid) keying system. But they resist anything that would make the instance anything more complex than having epics delivered to their mailbox every Tuesday evening.
I cried when I realized my decade old electronic chess set has a more complex AI than WoW :(.
It's sad because it's true. 20 years ago I played backgammon games on a C64 against a more formidable AI.
Anyway, on the one hand, I agree that threat meters are unnecessary and can be a crutch. We did aggro-sensitive fights like Hakkar long before a threat meter existed and had no trouble whatsoever. On the other hand, the gamer in me that likes to push everything to the limit likes knowing exactly how much I damage I can squeeze out before I go too far. ::) So I see both sides of it.
I currently have it installed because it seems like a vast majority of people fall into one of two categories:
1. Bad players that lack the common sense to even figure out "zomgstringocritz maybe I should back off a little".
2. Min-maxers who want to squeeze every last tiny bit of DPS they can out of their character.