No, it isn't the nature of the game. It's the nature of the specific people you play with. In my guild, the goal is to advance in game progression by killing bosses, clearing instances, getting loot, and earning achievements. If you choose to play with people whose goal is to compare lists of numbers and argue over them and insult each other over them, then you don't have much room to complain that your list of numbers doesn't look like someone else's list of numbers when you're using different tools to generate them.
I didn't ever say anyone's goal is to compare lists of numbers. I did say our goal is to discuss everyone's performance in raid so that people can improve on what they are doing and that we can advance in game progression, just like your guild.
The numbers Skada displays are quite meaningful -- if you understand them. Meters are merely a tool. They are not an absolute measure of anything. If you want your meters to be consistent with meters produced by Recount users, use Recount. Don't complain that because your Philips screwdriver doesn't work the same way as your neighbor's Allen wrench.
They are meaningful, yes. They could be even more meaningful. Look I simply wanted to start an intelligent discussion on what type of DPS calculation tells more about the encounter when it stands next to the damage done information. Instead you are preaching me about how you personally think these numbers should be looked at. I don't need your preaching, I am speaking from purely mathematical and statistical point of view, and saying that one algorithm for calculating DPS is less synonymous to the damage done value and therefore tells more about the encounter.
As for comparing with other addons, forget that, I don't wan't the numbers to be exactly the same, but the fact is that Skada is just wrong on heroic boss fights and it will be unless a better detection of the start of encounter is implemented. That's just how it is, pure fact. It is wrong. I suggested that this be fixed, so it could be better used outside raids as well (and on trash pulls as well) and the only thing I expect is a word from the author of the addon on whether he feels like ever implementing this or not. I don't need the moderator to give me his opinions on the morality of using this for whatever reason.
I simply wanted to start an intelligent discussion on what type of DPS calculation tells more about the encounter when it stands next to the damage done information.
Go look through the Recount thread, or Elitist Jerks, or any number of other WoW-related forums across the Internet. The issue of "DPS" has been discussed to death dozens of times, and there is really nothing left to discuss. There is no canonical measure of "DPS," and every addon that shows numbers labeled "DPS" does so according to method of calculation that were intentionally chosen by its author. If you feel that the numbers labeled "DPS" in one addon do not match your personal view of what "DPS" should mean, then you should at least consider that it may not be the right addon for you.
... the only thing I expect is a word from the author of the addon ...
These statements conflict with your claim that you "wanted to start an intelligent discussion." If you view someone expressing an opinion that differs from yours as "preaching," then you are not interested in having a discussion. If you only want a response from the author of an addon, and not from anyone else, you should contact the author privately, not post on a public forum.
I don't need the moderator to give me his opinions on the morality ...
My moderator status has nothing to do with anything I have said to you in this thread. If I am not deleting, moving, or editing your post, then I am not speaking as a moderator.
Furthermore, I find it amusing that you think morality has anything to do with a discussion about the merits of specific way of displaying information in a user interface addon for the World of Warcraft game.
Finally, since you are clearly more interested in discussing the discussion itself, rather than in having a discussion, I am no longer interested in the discussion. Good luck with your meter-obsessed guild.
1st: DPS
In my opinion the way Skada calculates DPS is superior to the way Recount does. Recount calculates active DPS afaik, which for example shows higher numbers for classes/speccs with lots of direct damage attacks (e.g. destru locks), while showing lower numbers for classes/speccs using a high amount of dots (e.g. affli locks).
So for me the way Skada works is preferable to the way Recount does, hence I use Skada. As different people have different opinions and needs there should be no attempt to align addons to all work the same way, then we wouldn't need different addons for it...
And as Phanx said: If you disagree with the way an addon works, just use the one that suits you better.
That's why there are always several addons out there doing the same thing.
2nd: Heroics
Damage/DPS in heroic instances is so highly irrelevant that a change "fixing" the late start of recording does not justify using more ressources and addon synching imho. If you really need "correct" numbers have the tank run Skada or use a damage meter that syncs.
Iirc we had the discussion of synching combat start at least twice already and it was clearly said that Skada will not be changed to do that.
It's very important to see a mage's threat while his Mirror Images are up because you inherit the temporarily suspended (set to negative) threat after the duration of the buff. I actually thought this was fixed a while ago (there's some code for it iirc) but it doesn't seem to work. Excellent way of doing this is showing the threat bar but making it transparent or in another color for the duration of the buff.
This becomes even more important now (or soon) with the mage 4T10 which reminded me to nag :)
If set to grow upwards, scrolling is inverted and Skada shows the bottom of the list which makes the feature pretty unusable as you have to see the top of the list for Threat and only the top is interesting for damage/healing/etc meters.
Just wondering if it is possible to set Skada Threat module to show threat of targets target or threat of focus target. One thing that I often did and relied on with recount was setting the MT as the focus target and then omen would use the target of the focus to show the threat of the whole raid on that mob.
Are there any plans to seperate the instant damage listing from the dot damage listing on spells like moonfire or immolate? right now it shows it all in one lump.
Also is there a way to show the total raid dps for a segment?
Total raid DPS can be seen if you go into a segment and then stay in the Modes-selection. The DPS-mode will have the total raid DPS on the right end of the bar.
Has the idea of an "answering machine" type feature emerged? What I mean by this is the option to allow others to request data by whispering specific strings to the host running Skada. During 25m raids only 1-2 of us has a damage meter enabled due to performance considerations and they tend to freak out from having to send several death / damage / heal ... reports to various people after each and every encounter. Likewise I do run Skada in 10m and 5m instances and find non-stop reporting tedious after a time when groupped with meter whores or doing progression fights. As far as I remember Skada does no data synching so there is not much harm done in encouraging running one instance of the addon per group.
Have the people who constantly want reports actually tried running Skada/Recount/etc. to know that their machines really aren't capable of running them? The resource usage is really not that significant unless their machine is barely hitting the minimum specs for WoW.
Either way, I am firmly of the opinion that if someone genuinely cares about meters, they should be running their own addon, not annoying me for reports all the time. If their computer sucks, well, that sucks, but it's not my fault, and I don't want to run extra code to make up for their technological shortcomings and provide them with information that's not critical and that they'll probaby misinterpret anyway. If a damage meter was necessary to play the game, Blizzard would have built one into the default UI.
So, I vote no for automated reporting stuff, unless its in a separate plugin and not bloating up the main addon.
You could make a macro that would send a report of the currently displayed meter to your current target; that might make your life easier if those people really can't live without meters and really can't run one themselves.
Not being capable of running ~= a desire for better performance. Saying that Skada has a negligible hit on overall system performance and then considering simple chat parsing bloat you have no wish to waste resources on is an interesting statement, especially considering the relative number of CLEU events and whispers in combat when it actually matters. And the answer is yes, I have actually tried running WoW with and without Skada. By itself it does not make an enormous difference, but it certainly has an impact and it adds up fast.
Judging the worth of recorded data and how people interpret it has nothing to do with the proposed feature, it has to with the existence of damage meter addons. I could go on for several pages detailing how and when they proved to be useful - Lana'thel being the most recent notable example -, however since you yourself use them I'm sure there is no need to convince you. Blizzard also thinks the default raid frames are sufficient to raid heal with a druid, only druids don't.
According to the description one of Skada's goal is to be light-weight. Which one fits that description more? Ten members of a raid running separate instances or only one with some extra code? When you go hiking with friends do you all bring your own tin openers or does one of you actually take the time to inform the others he does bring one so there is no need for them to do so?
Blizzard also thinks the default raid frames are sufficient to raid heal with a druid, only druids don't.
Which druids? Certainly not all of them... I personally know at least one druid who heals very well with the Blizzard raid frames, and many more who have never mentioned which raid frames they use who may also be using the Blizzard ones.
Saying that Skada has a negligible hit on overall system performance and then considering simple chat parsing bloat you have no wish to waste resources on is an interesting statement [...] When you go hiking with friends do you all bring your own tin openers or does one of you actually take the time to inform the others he does bring one so there is no need for them to do so?
Apples and oranges.
When you're hiking, you are limited by what your body can physically carry for an extended period of time while walking, running, or climing over varied terrain. No matter how much you work out, or how healthily you eat, there is only so much you can carry for so long. There are also many things that you need to carry when you go hiking. Furthermore, when you're hiking with a group of people, it's generally a planned event that you prepare for ahead of time by choosing specific items to bring, and it is typical to share items.
When you're playing WoW, there is not really a practical limit on the number of addons your computer can run. Speaking strictly in terms of computer resources, and setting aside all matters of inter-addon conflicts and limitations imposed by the WoW client on things like memory block allocation, you could install every single addon available on Curse.com, and your computer would be able to run all of them forever. There are no addons you need to run in order to play WoW. Furthermore, when you're playing WoW with a group of people, it's generally not an event you planned very far in advance, if at all, or one that you prepared for by choosing specific addons. Since addons are generally designed primarily to enhance your user interface and make your gameplay easier, you don't prepare for a raid by discussing with the other people who will be raiding with you and deciding who will install which addons.
All of that aside, even if running Skada reduces your average framerate by 15 (which is a wildly overestimated number), the game is still playable. Addons are a luxury. They are not required. No matter how much you dislike the default UI, it is totally functional, and tens -- probably hundreds -- of thousands of people play with it every day. Every addon you install is a tradeoff between the functionality it provides and the resources it uses.
If you personally decide an addon's functionality isn't worth its resource usage, you don't have to install it -- but you also don't get to make other people run extra code that uses more resources without providing them with more functionality. You don't get to have the functionality while offloading the resource usage to everyone else.
There are many more people who either run their own meter, or don't care about meters, than there are people who care about meters but are unwilling to run their own. No addon should ever be bloated with extra code to cater to those people who don't think the addon is worth their own resources.
Anyway, I'm just going to unsubscribe from this thread, because it's become clear from the last few pages that the average Skada user has very different views from my own, and since I am not the author of Skada and have nothing to do with its development, it is totally pointless for me to continue discussing issues I do not agree with. If you want to continue this conversation, you can PM me.
You also don't get to participate in public debates, make your point then prevent the other party from responding in kind without making yourself appear childish. Being the avid forum poster you are, you should know more than anyone that there is nothing wrong with having different points of view. In fact this place would be outright dead if we agreed on everything, so I don't quite get your reaction. I as a user proposed a feature, you as a user made arguments against it and hopefully this all helps the author decide if it was worth considering or not. If you insist on avoiding this thread that of course is your call but as you can see it has not prevented me from posting my arguments to carry on the discussion of the actual subject. However if you refrained from forcing me to spell out everything to its last bit I would be glad to hear your response because I did not post for the sake of posting.
The culprit of our disagreement I believe lies in the circumnstances. Should I participate in a PUG and require a damage meter, I would run my own instance of Skada just like I would bring my own tin opener when hiking with complete strangers. In this case the feature is bloat times the number of people running the addon, and only helps the "parasites" who are able to reap the benefits free of charge.
On the other hand when raiding with the same people I have been for years, I am willing to pay that little extra cost for the benefit of all my friends. They can count on me running Skada, and at the same time I can count on one of them running a boss mod that broadcasts events, another on checking buffs before each pull, a third one saving the combat log and uploading it to an online parser, and so on and so forth. This is where they "get to make me run extra code and providing me with extra functionality"; division of labour has been around for quite some time. In this case the feature would have enormous benefits in relation to Skada's resource consumption as what could be better than not having to run the addon at all.
Now. Every rational decision is made by measuring costs against benefits. Since the number of people running Skada in PUGs versus guild runs is unknown I agree that probably an optional module is the best way to go if this thing is really that heavy on CPU time, although judging by my limited knowledge of Lua and the WoW API it is not. I also believe system performance is mostly an issue in 25-40 raids where one tends to go with a guild and not in parties where one tends to pug or BGs where there is not much point in having a damage meter in the first place.
You also don't get to participate in public debates, make your point then prevent the other party from responding in kind without making yourself appear childish. Being the avid forum poster you are, you should know more than anyone that there is nothing wrong with having different points of view. In fact this place would be outright dead if we agreed on everything, so I don't quite get your reaction. I as a user proposed a feature, you as a user made arguments against it and hopefully this all helps the author decide if it was worth considering or not. If you insist on avoiding this thread that of course is your call but as you can see it has not prevented me from posting my arguments to carry on the discussion of the actual subject. However if you refrained from forcing me to spell out everything to its last bit I would be glad to hear your response because I did not post for the sake of posting.
The culprit of our disagreement I believe lies in the circumnstances. Should I participate in a PUG and require a damage meter, I would run my own instance of Skada just like I would bring my own tin opener when hiking with complete strangers. In this case the feature is bloat times the number of people running the addon, and only helps the "parasites" who are able to reap the benefits free of charge.
On the other hand when raiding with the same people I have been for years, I am willing to pay that little extra cost for the benefit of all my friends. They can count on me running Skada, and at the same time I can count on one of them running a boss mod that broadcasts events, another on checking buffs before each pull, a third one saving the combat log and uploading it to an online parser, and so on and so forth. This is where they "get to make me run extra code and providing me with extra functionality"; division of labour has been around for quite some time. In this case the feature would have enormous benefits in relation to Skada's resource consumption as what could be better than not having to run the addon at all.
Now. Every rational decision is made by measuring costs against benefits. Since the number of people running Skada in PUGs versus guild runs is unknown I agree that probably an optional module is the best way to go if this thing is really that heavy on CPU time, although judging by my limited knowledge of Lua and the WoW API it is not. I also believe system performance is mostly an issue in 25-40 raids where one tends to go with a guild and not in parties where one tends to pug or BGs where there is not much point in having a damage meter in the first place.
In most guilds thou everyone is required to run a treatmeter, then they might aswell run skada themselves and use its threatdisplay.
If set to grow upwards, scrolling is inverted and Skada shows the bottom of the list which makes the feature pretty unusable as you have to see the top of the list for Threat and only the top is interesting for damage/healing/etc meters.
i found this question only once in this thread and no answer for it.
Is there an option to let skada calculate the thread of my focus target? As healer I set the MT as focus, but there is no way to show the group/raid thread, without having any mob as target, right?
I didn't ever say anyone's goal is to compare lists of numbers. I did say our goal is to discuss everyone's performance in raid so that people can improve on what they are doing and that we can advance in game progression, just like your guild.
They are meaningful, yes. They could be even more meaningful. Look I simply wanted to start an intelligent discussion on what type of DPS calculation tells more about the encounter when it stands next to the damage done information. Instead you are preaching me about how you personally think these numbers should be looked at. I don't need your preaching, I am speaking from purely mathematical and statistical point of view, and saying that one algorithm for calculating DPS is less synonymous to the damage done value and therefore tells more about the encounter.
As for comparing with other addons, forget that, I don't wan't the numbers to be exactly the same, but the fact is that Skada is just wrong on heroic boss fights and it will be unless a better detection of the start of encounter is implemented. That's just how it is, pure fact. It is wrong. I suggested that this be fixed, so it could be better used outside raids as well (and on trash pulls as well) and the only thing I expect is a word from the author of the addon on whether he feels like ever implementing this or not. I don't need the moderator to give me his opinions on the morality of using this for whatever reason.
Go look through the Recount thread, or Elitist Jerks, or any number of other WoW-related forums across the Internet. The issue of "DPS" has been discussed to death dozens of times, and there is really nothing left to discuss. There is no canonical measure of "DPS," and every addon that shows numbers labeled "DPS" does so according to method of calculation that were intentionally chosen by its author. If you feel that the numbers labeled "DPS" in one addon do not match your personal view of what "DPS" should mean, then you should at least consider that it may not be the right addon for you.
These statements conflict with your claim that you "wanted to start an intelligent discussion." If you view someone expressing an opinion that differs from yours as "preaching," then you are not interested in having a discussion. If you only want a response from the author of an addon, and not from anyone else, you should contact the author privately, not post on a public forum.
My moderator status has nothing to do with anything I have said to you in this thread. If I am not deleting, moving, or editing your post, then I am not speaking as a moderator.
Furthermore, I find it amusing that you think morality has anything to do with a discussion about the merits of specific way of displaying information in a user interface addon for the World of Warcraft game.
Finally, since you are clearly more interested in discussing the discussion itself, rather than in having a discussion, I am no longer interested in the discussion. Good luck with your meter-obsessed guild.
In my opinion the way Skada calculates DPS is superior to the way Recount does. Recount calculates active DPS afaik, which for example shows higher numbers for classes/speccs with lots of direct damage attacks (e.g. destru locks), while showing lower numbers for classes/speccs using a high amount of dots (e.g. affli locks).
So for me the way Skada works is preferable to the way Recount does, hence I use Skada. As different people have different opinions and needs there should be no attempt to align addons to all work the same way, then we wouldn't need different addons for it...
And as Phanx said: If you disagree with the way an addon works, just use the one that suits you better.
That's why there are always several addons out there doing the same thing.
2nd: Heroics
Damage/DPS in heroic instances is so highly irrelevant that a change "fixing" the late start of recording does not justify using more ressources and addon synching imho. If you really need "correct" numbers have the tank run Skada or use a damage meter that syncs.
Iirc we had the discussion of synching combat start at least twice already and it was clearly said that Skada will not be changed to do that.
- Showing threat during Mirror Images, see
http://forums.wowace.com/showpost.php?p=271342&postcount=137
It's very important to see a mage's threat while his Mirror Images are up because you inherit the temporarily suspended (set to negative) threat after the duration of the buff. I actually thought this was fixed a while ago (there's some code for it iirc) but it doesn't seem to work. Excellent way of doing this is showing the threat bar but making it transparent or in another color for the duration of the buff.
This becomes even more important now (or soon) with the mage 4T10 which reminded me to nag :)
- Behaviour of of the meters if set to "grow upwards", see
http://forums.wowace.com/showpost.php?p=277851&postcount=198
If set to grow upwards, scrolling is inverted and Skada shows the bottom of the list which makes the feature pretty unusable as you have to see the top of the list for Threat and only the top is interesting for damage/healing/etc meters.
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Curse PremiumAlso is there a way to show the total raid dps for a segment?
Either way, I am firmly of the opinion that if someone genuinely cares about meters, they should be running their own addon, not annoying me for reports all the time. If their computer sucks, well, that sucks, but it's not my fault, and I don't want to run extra code to make up for their technological shortcomings and provide them with information that's not critical and that they'll probaby misinterpret anyway. If a damage meter was necessary to play the game, Blizzard would have built one into the default UI.
So, I vote no for automated reporting stuff, unless its in a separate plugin and not bloating up the main addon.
You could make a macro that would send a report of the currently displayed meter to your current target; that might make your life easier if those people really can't live without meters and really can't run one themselves.
Judging the worth of recorded data and how people interpret it has nothing to do with the proposed feature, it has to with the existence of damage meter addons. I could go on for several pages detailing how and when they proved to be useful - Lana'thel being the most recent notable example -, however since you yourself use them I'm sure there is no need to convince you. Blizzard also thinks the default raid frames are sufficient to raid heal with a druid, only druids don't.
According to the description one of Skada's goal is to be light-weight. Which one fits that description more? Ten members of a raid running separate instances or only one with some extra code? When you go hiking with friends do you all bring your own tin openers or does one of you actually take the time to inform the others he does bring one so there is no need for them to do so?
Which druids? Certainly not all of them... I personally know at least one druid who heals very well with the Blizzard raid frames, and many more who have never mentioned which raid frames they use who may also be using the Blizzard ones.
Apples and oranges.
When you're hiking, you are limited by what your body can physically carry for an extended period of time while walking, running, or climing over varied terrain. No matter how much you work out, or how healthily you eat, there is only so much you can carry for so long. There are also many things that you need to carry when you go hiking. Furthermore, when you're hiking with a group of people, it's generally a planned event that you prepare for ahead of time by choosing specific items to bring, and it is typical to share items.
When you're playing WoW, there is not really a practical limit on the number of addons your computer can run. Speaking strictly in terms of computer resources, and setting aside all matters of inter-addon conflicts and limitations imposed by the WoW client on things like memory block allocation, you could install every single addon available on Curse.com, and your computer would be able to run all of them forever. There are no addons you need to run in order to play WoW. Furthermore, when you're playing WoW with a group of people, it's generally not an event you planned very far in advance, if at all, or one that you prepared for by choosing specific addons. Since addons are generally designed primarily to enhance your user interface and make your gameplay easier, you don't prepare for a raid by discussing with the other people who will be raiding with you and deciding who will install which addons.
All of that aside, even if running Skada reduces your average framerate by 15 (which is a wildly overestimated number), the game is still playable. Addons are a luxury. They are not required. No matter how much you dislike the default UI, it is totally functional, and tens -- probably hundreds -- of thousands of people play with it every day. Every addon you install is a tradeoff between the functionality it provides and the resources it uses.
If you personally decide an addon's functionality isn't worth its resource usage, you don't have to install it -- but you also don't get to make other people run extra code that uses more resources without providing them with more functionality. You don't get to have the functionality while offloading the resource usage to everyone else.
There are many more people who either run their own meter, or don't care about meters, than there are people who care about meters but are unwilling to run their own. No addon should ever be bloated with extra code to cater to those people who don't think the addon is worth their own resources.
Anyway, I'm just going to unsubscribe from this thread, because it's become clear from the last few pages that the average Skada user has very different views from my own, and since I am not the author of Skada and have nothing to do with its development, it is totally pointless for me to continue discussing issues I do not agree with. If you want to continue this conversation, you can PM me.
The culprit of our disagreement I believe lies in the circumnstances. Should I participate in a PUG and require a damage meter, I would run my own instance of Skada just like I would bring my own tin opener when hiking with complete strangers. In this case the feature is bloat times the number of people running the addon, and only helps the "parasites" who are able to reap the benefits free of charge.
On the other hand when raiding with the same people I have been for years, I am willing to pay that little extra cost for the benefit of all my friends. They can count on me running Skada, and at the same time I can count on one of them running a boss mod that broadcasts events, another on checking buffs before each pull, a third one saving the combat log and uploading it to an online parser, and so on and so forth. This is where they "get to make me run extra code and providing me with extra functionality"; division of labour has been around for quite some time. In this case the feature would have enormous benefits in relation to Skada's resource consumption as what could be better than not having to run the addon at all.
Now. Every rational decision is made by measuring costs against benefits. Since the number of people running Skada in PUGs versus guild runs is unknown I agree that probably an optional module is the best way to go if this thing is really that heavy on CPU time, although judging by my limited knowledge of Lua and the WoW API it is not. I also believe system performance is mostly an issue in 25-40 raids where one tends to go with a guild and not in parties where one tends to pug or BGs where there is not much point in having a damage meter in the first place.
In most guilds thou everyone is required to run a treatmeter, then they might aswell run skada themselves and use its threatdisplay.
I second this. Any ETA? Thanks for a great addon.
Is that a known issue?
i found this question only once in this thread and no answer for it.
Is there an option to let skada calculate the thread of my focus target? As healer I set the MT as focus, but there is no way to show the group/raid thread, without having any mob as target, right?
thx, joke
I was under the impression that this is already the case (for damage, not threat) and that there was no way to toggle it off.