To the people asking for more and more features - I suspect Tuller set-out to create a lightweight action-bar - probably, if I know programmers well enough, because he felt Bongos had become weighed-down by it's featureset and was getting messy.
A balancing act has to be struck between 'lightweight' and 'functional' of course - the clever part will be ensuring Mangos (or Weighted Companion Bars!) has 'just enough' features to operate as a useful actionbar mod without ANY bloat whatsoever - IMO.
I could be that Mangos will eventually have all the cleverness of Bongos - but it will be so modular that you simply don't install the bits you don't want.
First things first tho - what is in the minimum featureset for an actionbar mod that Mangoes doesn't have right now?
All I can think of is the option of putting binding and macro names on the buttons (given that the standard Blizzard bars do this anyway!).
Tooltip suppression is - to be honest - something your tooltip mod should do (TipTac will suppress tooltips in combat for example).
Variable length actionbars is a quite complex feature used by relatively few people (G15 owners and those people who MUST put everything in a big, ugly back bar at the bottom of their screen!) - and by necessity makes returning to the regular Blizzard bars (or another bar mod) much harder - I'm not sure it counts as 'lightweight'...
Let's not push Tuller into making this a new version of Bongos just yet eh?
Variable length actionbars is a quite complex feature used by relatively few people (G15 owners and those people who MUST put everything in a big, ugly back bar at the bottom of their screen!) - and by necessity makes returning to the regular Blizzard bars (or another bar mod) much harder - I'm not sure it counts as 'lightweight'...
He already fixed this :-)
I agree that it is a feature over and above bare minimum, but it is also a feature I have a very hard time living without (since I'm one of the G15/N52 owners). I'd be more than happy if there was a way to make this an optional extension but am just glad that I'll be able to stick with Tuller's action bars since I've been a "customer" of his since Bongos(1).
Mangos was coded to allow bars to be shrunk, and to have a variable number of bars.
Mangos is not coded to do the variable length bar system of Bongos3, and will not be.
After the option menu is written, Mangos will essentially be feature complete. Beyond bugfixes, I don't anticipate any more major changes until Wrath.
Just my 10p but a super-lightweight actionbar mod can probably do without an options menu entirely?
The existing config menus for each bar could easily be extended to include 'show keymapping' and 'show macro names'
A slash command could set the default bar length - or it could be another 'right click' config menu option.
What else do you need!? :)
p.s. As a code I HATE - HATE - HATE writing menus. They generally take 3 times longer than writing the code which actually does the clever stuff - I hate em :)
I've not spec'd out what I want in the GUI. Everything in the bongos3 menu, minus color, tooltip, and profile stuff is likely it. Actually take out the visibility stuff too.
Tuller, dunno if you missed my request first time, but you didn't reply, so I will repeat. Please consider adding "one bag" setting. I am not sure, but i think it is possible to do it in the global options, cause bag is in the core anyway.
And also. Weighted Companion Bars is the best name evah.
I think Mangos (Embargo, Djembe etc etc...) only miss macro names now, or well, maybe the range recolor included (or as module by Tuller) and not through a third party module but that's it, it's perfect.
Tuller, dunno if you missed my request first time, but you didn't reply, so I will repeat. Please consider adding "one bag" setting. I am not sure, but i think it is possible to do it in the global options, cause bag is in the core anyway.
Justify the need for a one bag setting :P
Quote from Caellian »
I think Mangos (Embargo, Djembe etc etc...) only miss macro names now, or well, maybe the range recolor included (or as module by Tuller) and not through a third party module but that's it, it's perfect.
Macro/hotkey hiding will be part of the options menu.
Range coloring: I prefer the RedRange solution, honestly. Its pretty much how the code would look like if I made a mangos plugin.
I'm using Bagnon currently, it is the best way for me to manage inventory and cache bank items, so only one bag button is needed. If I drop Bagnon and use default bags, I won't have a decent alternative to BagnonForever (looked into couple of addons such as BankItems and they kinda suck compared to Bagnon, all being clumsy as hell)
Range coloring: I prefer the RedRange solution, honestly. Its pretty much how the code would look like if I made a mangos plugin.
and you're FAR FAR too proud just to do a global search-and-replace of 'RedRange' to 'Mangos_Rangecolor' and release it in a 'Limbo of the Lost' style plagaristic fervour?
Tooltip suppression is - to be honest - something your tooltip mod should do (TipTac will suppress tooltips in combat for example).
No, actually, it won't... only unit tooltips. I am *forever* looking for a tooltip mod that does everything I want, and doesn't require a PhD to get it looking nice. The tooltip hiding is not present in either TipTac or TinyTip.
When I asked the TipTac author to put in hiding tooltips in combat, he said it wasn't the job of the tooltip addon, it was the job of the other addons and cited Bongos as an example.
Variable length actionbars is a quite complex feature used by relatively few people (G15 owners and those people who MUST put everything in a big, ugly back bar at the bottom of their screen!) - and by necessity makes returning to the regular Blizzard bars (or another bar mod) much harder - I'm not sure it counts as 'lightweight'...
Let's not push Tuller into making this a new version of Bongos just yet eh?
Being totally ignorant of LUA, it seemed like something that would be minor and used by the majority. Most screenshots I've seen of UIs have more or less than the standard 12 buttons per row.
But meh. It's done so it's a moot point.
Like Lindalas, I've been using Bongos since it's inception. I've admittedly become a bit of a "fangrrl" (if you'll pardon the expression) and have a deep respect for minimalist mods that are well written. If a mod author I'm a fan of determines something is unwanted bloat, I'm going to agree. :)
Thanks again for addressing my inquiry so quickly, Tuller.
To my understanding (havent looked at the code) Tuller uses standart actionbars internally including hotkeys. That's why making>12 buttons will be hard. I would love a bit more too, but in the minimalistic idea - 12 are enough if keeps the mod simple
To the people asking for more and more features - I suspect Tuller set-out to create a lightweight action-bar - probably, if I know programmers well enough, because he felt Bongos had become weighed-down by it's featureset and was getting messy.
It seems like there's no distinction being made between features that actually relate to action bars and features related to other UI elements.
I think most people felt Bongos3 was bloated because it had a minimap, casting bars, xp bar, kitchen sink, who knows what else. I doubt anyone ever used any iteration of Bongos for those things. We /did/ use it as a feature-rich ACTION BAR mod, and I believe that's still what people are looking for.
The minimap, quest movers, BG stuff...that was not part of the base Bongos pack for either 2 or 3. Those are tie-ins that Jailborc wrote. Yes, it did have a rollbar, castbar, and xp bar. However, you can't use just those features to call Bongos3 bloated without also calling Bongos2 bloated. IMO, neither was bloated. However, opinions are like armpits. ;)
I dropped Bongos3 not because it was bloated, but because I never felt like it was as user-friendly as Bongos2. The bar creation was just not intuitive at all, and neither was paging. I also didn't like that you had to unlock the bars, but still type /bongos to do other stuff. I liked Bongos2 because all I needed to do was /bongos...and boom, it was all right there. It looks like Mangos is following that trend, and I'm grateful. Granted, I don't go around rearranging everything on my setup constantly, but when I need or want to fiddle with something, I appreciate it being easy and intuitive.
Variable length actionbars is a quite complex feature used by relatively few people (G15 owners and those people who MUST put everything in a big, ugly back bar at the bottom of their screen!) - and by necessity makes returning to the regular Blizzard bars (or another bar mod) much harder - I'm not sure it counts as 'lightweight'...
Why must I be a G15 owner or put everything in a big ugly back bar at bottom of the screen? You don't think its possible to combine feature complete addons with a good looking UI?
Quote from trjp »
Just my 10p but a super-lightweight actionbar mod can probably do without an options menu entirely?
Of course striving to have efficient, small and easily maintained addons are great. But wanting to have a really bare addon when there isn't really anything to gain from that seems backwards to me.
Anyway, tested Mangos a bit now. Looking forward to release.
Mangos 1.7.0 is up
* Wrote an options menu
* Added in stuff to allow hiding and showing of bindings
* Added in stuff to allow hiding and showing of macro text
* Added in stuff to allow selfcast configuration
* Added in stuff to allow button pickup key configuration
* Added in stuff to allow possess bar selection
* Added in stuff to allow right click unit selection (player, focus, mouseover, none)
* Moved all config localization to Mangos_Config
* Removed the showgrid slash command
You know, I just realized how useless a mouseover option is for a right click unit. I'm open to suggestions for another option. Pet is really the only thing I can think of.
On bloat:
The casting bar, roll bar, and xp bar, and stats are under the reduced scope criteria for Bongos3: everything that you screw up by breaking apart the main actionbar. As far as adding bloat to the core...probably a little. Since I focused the main frame object on being a container of buttons instead of being just a generic container object, I was able to remove a lot of redundant code (all from layout functionality).
The real reason that Mangos is "lighter" than Bongos3/2 is that I'm reusing the stock action buttons. This is actually something I've always wanted to do, but the code for the buttons wasn't really at a point where I could use it and have it work well for a good while. Not having to create all 120 buttons at once is a real memory saver. So is not having to reinvent the entire action button template.
Also it should be noted that Mangos probably uses more CPU time than Bongos2/3 due to me reusing the stock action button code, which isn't super optimized.
Variable length bars:
They will not be done in Mangos. I learned the hard way that doing variable length action bars while keeping the 120 action button limit is a real pain in the ass. If I ever decide to write a system that does it, it will be infinite. Also did I mention I really only use the standard 10 bars, 12 button each setup? That's my biggest reason for not implementing it.
Mangos supports shrinking of bars, and setting the number of action bars. The latter will be included only as a slash command.
I just loaded the most recent version. I don't know about the cpu usage; if I'm taking a performance hit, I can't tell so far. As far as the feature set goes...perfect. (I'm gonna miss the Mangos name.)
Edit: ...except that I'm getting some errors on stance bars. O.o
[2008/06/13 22:47:16-481-x1]: Mangos-1.7.0\classBar.lua:182: attempt to index global 'hotkey' (a nil value)
Mangos-1.7.0\classBar.lua:68: in function `Create'
Mangos-1.7.0\classBar.lua:24: in function `New'
Mangos-1.7.0\classBar.lua:226: in function `AddButton'
Mangos-1.7.0\classBar.lua:243: in function `UpdateForms'
Mangos-1.7.0\classBar.lua:201: in function `New'
Mangos-1.7.0\Mangos.lua:109: in function `Load'
Mangos-1.7.0\Mangos.lua:59: in function <Interface\AddOns\Mangos\Mangos.lua:58>
(tail call): ?:
<in C code>: ?
<string>:"safecall Dispatcher[1]":9: in function <[string "safecall Dispatcher[1]"]:5>
(tail call): ?:
AceAddon-3.0\AceAddon-3.0.lua:365: in function `EnableAddon'
AceAddon-3.0\AceAddon-3.0.lua:435: in function <Interface\AddOns\Ace3\AceAddon-3.0\AceAddon-3.0.lua:421>
<in C code>: in function `LoadAddOn'
Interface\FrameXML\UIParent.lua:908: in function `UIParentLoadAddOn':
Interface\FrameXML\UIParent.lua:234: in function `CombatLog_LoadUI':
Interface\FrameXML\UIParent.lua:327: in function `UIParent_OnEvent':
<string>:"*:OnEvent":1: in function <[string "*:OnEvent"]:1>
and
[2008/06/13 22:47:19-481-x1]: Mangos-1.7.0\classBar.lua:182: attempt to index global 'hotkey' (a nil value)
Mangos-1.7.0\classBar.lua:68: in function `Create'
Mangos-1.7.0\classBar.lua:24: in function `New'
Mangos-1.7.0\classBar.lua:226: in function `AddButton'
Mangos-1.7.0\classBar.lua:243: in function <Interface\AddOns\Mangos\classBar.lua:239>
Just switchted from Bongos to Mangos (or Embargo *g*)
I had one Problem I could not solve. I had a single button in my top left corne. That button used the keybinding 1 and neither could I move that single button nor change the keybinding. I have NO clue what caused that..
SchmuseTiger,
I believe someone reported the same issuer a page or two back. They discovered it was a conflict with Skinner. That may be your issue as well.
Good luck.
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A balancing act has to be struck between 'lightweight' and 'functional' of course - the clever part will be ensuring Mangos (or Weighted Companion Bars!) has 'just enough' features to operate as a useful actionbar mod without ANY bloat whatsoever - IMO.
I could be that Mangos will eventually have all the cleverness of Bongos - but it will be so modular that you simply don't install the bits you don't want.
First things first tho - what is in the minimum featureset for an actionbar mod that Mangoes doesn't have right now?
All I can think of is the option of putting binding and macro names on the buttons (given that the standard Blizzard bars do this anyway!).
Tooltip suppression is - to be honest - something your tooltip mod should do (TipTac will suppress tooltips in combat for example).
Variable length actionbars is a quite complex feature used by relatively few people (G15 owners and those people who MUST put everything in a big, ugly back bar at the bottom of their screen!) - and by necessity makes returning to the regular Blizzard bars (or another bar mod) much harder - I'm not sure it counts as 'lightweight'...
Let's not push Tuller into making this a new version of Bongos just yet eh?
He already fixed this :-)
I agree that it is a feature over and above bare minimum, but it is also a feature I have a very hard time living without (since I'm one of the G15/N52 owners). I'd be more than happy if there was a way to make this an optional extension but am just glad that I'll be able to stick with Tuller's action bars since I've been a "customer" of his since Bongos(1).
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Curse PremiumMangos is not coded to do the variable length bar system of Bongos3, and will not be.
After the option menu is written, Mangos will essentially be feature complete. Beyond bugfixes, I don't anticipate any more major changes until Wrath.
The existing config menus for each bar could easily be extended to include 'show keymapping' and 'show macro names'
A slash command could set the default bar length - or it could be another 'right click' config menu option.
What else do you need!? :)
p.s. As a code I HATE - HATE - HATE writing menus. They generally take 3 times longer than writing the code which actually does the clever stuff - I hate em :)
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Curse PremiumAnd also. Weighted Companion Bars is the best name evah.
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Curse PremiumJustify the need for a one bag setting :P
Macro/hotkey hiding will be part of the options menu.
Range coloring: I prefer the RedRange solution, honestly. Its pretty much how the code would look like if I made a mangos plugin.
I'm using Bagnon currently, it is the best way for me to manage inventory and cache bank items, so only one bag button is needed. If I drop Bagnon and use default bags, I won't have a decent alternative to BagnonForever (looked into couple of addons such as BankItems and they kinda suck compared to Bagnon, all being clumsy as hell)
and you're FAR FAR too proud just to do a global search-and-replace of 'RedRange' to 'Mangos_Rangecolor' and release it in a 'Limbo of the Lost' style plagaristic fervour?
:)
No, actually, it won't... only unit tooltips. I am *forever* looking for a tooltip mod that does everything I want, and doesn't require a PhD to get it looking nice. The tooltip hiding is not present in either TipTac or TinyTip.
When I asked the TipTac author to put in hiding tooltips in combat, he said it wasn't the job of the tooltip addon, it was the job of the other addons and cited Bongos as an example.
Being totally ignorant of LUA, it seemed like something that would be minor and used by the majority. Most screenshots I've seen of UIs have more or less than the standard 12 buttons per row.
But meh. It's done so it's a moot point.
Like Lindalas, I've been using Bongos since it's inception. I've admittedly become a bit of a "fangrrl" (if you'll pardon the expression) and have a deep respect for minimalist mods that are well written. If a mod author I'm a fan of determines something is unwanted bloat, I'm going to agree. :)
Thanks again for addressing my inquiry so quickly, Tuller.
*edited for spelling. rawr!*
It seems like there's no distinction being made between features that actually relate to action bars and features related to other UI elements.
I think most people felt Bongos3 was bloated because it had a minimap, casting bars, xp bar, kitchen sink, who knows what else. I doubt anyone ever used any iteration of Bongos for those things. We /did/ use it as a feature-rich ACTION BAR mod, and I believe that's still what people are looking for.
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Curse PremiumI dropped Bongos3 not because it was bloated, but because I never felt like it was as user-friendly as Bongos2. The bar creation was just not intuitive at all, and neither was paging. I also didn't like that you had to unlock the bars, but still type /bongos to do other stuff. I liked Bongos2 because all I needed to do was /bongos...and boom, it was all right there. It looks like Mangos is following that trend, and I'm grateful. Granted, I don't go around rearranging everything on my setup constantly, but when I need or want to fiddle with something, I appreciate it being easy and intuitive.
Why must I be a G15 owner or put everything in a big ugly back bar at bottom of the screen? You don't think its possible to combine feature complete addons with a good looking UI?
Of course striving to have efficient, small and easily maintained addons are great. But wanting to have a really bare addon when there isn't really anything to gain from that seems backwards to me.
Anyway, tested Mangos a bit now. Looking forward to release.
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Curse Premium* Wrote an options menu
* Added in stuff to allow hiding and showing of bindings
* Added in stuff to allow hiding and showing of macro text
* Added in stuff to allow selfcast configuration
* Added in stuff to allow button pickup key configuration
* Added in stuff to allow possess bar selection
* Added in stuff to allow right click unit selection (player, focus, mouseover, none)
* Moved all config localization to Mangos_Config
* Removed the showgrid slash command
You know, I just realized how useless a mouseover option is for a right click unit. I'm open to suggestions for another option. Pet is really the only thing I can think of.
On bloat:
The casting bar, roll bar, and xp bar, and stats are under the reduced scope criteria for Bongos3: everything that you screw up by breaking apart the main actionbar. As far as adding bloat to the core...probably a little. Since I focused the main frame object on being a container of buttons instead of being just a generic container object, I was able to remove a lot of redundant code (all from layout functionality).
The real reason that Mangos is "lighter" than Bongos3/2 is that I'm reusing the stock action buttons. This is actually something I've always wanted to do, but the code for the buttons wasn't really at a point where I could use it and have it work well for a good while. Not having to create all 120 buttons at once is a real memory saver. So is not having to reinvent the entire action button template.
Also it should be noted that Mangos probably uses more CPU time than Bongos2/3 due to me reusing the stock action button code, which isn't super optimized.
Variable length bars:
They will not be done in Mangos. I learned the hard way that doing variable length action bars while keeping the 120 action button limit is a real pain in the ass. If I ever decide to write a system that does it, it will be infinite. Also did I mention I really only use the standard 10 bars, 12 button each setup? That's my biggest reason for not implementing it.
Mangos supports shrinking of bars, and setting the number of action bars. The latter will be included only as a slash command.
Also Embargo won the poll.
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Curse PremiumEdit: ...except that I'm getting some errors on stance bars. O.o
and
I had one Problem I could not solve. I had a single button in my top left corne. That button used the keybinding 1 and neither could I move that single button nor change the keybinding. I have NO clue what caused that..
I believe someone reported the same issuer a page or two back. They discovered it was a conflict with Skinner. That may be your issue as well.
Good luck.