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To be quite blunt, this is what the "community" has lost... this attitude. We were making progress distancing ourselves from the "it's better because _I_ wrote it, so it must be better" attitude that Rowne (bless his furry little ass) tended to put out... and more towards an general attitude of "we try to make our mods smaller and faster". There's really a key difference between those two.
But that's the thing, at some point we drifted back into "it's Ace, therefore it's better"... and this is not good. There are a good deal of "Aced" mods that plain suck. We used to keep each other in line, read each other's code... share tips on making shit streamlined. Instead people have become too dependant on libraries without learning the underlying principals of those libraries (Compost anyone?). Authors are being lazy and expecting that their code is better because it runs on Ace. Completely ignoring the underlying libs, bad code is still bad code even when it uses Ace.
So what's my ranting... well I guess I'm trying to say ya all need to step back and look at the big picture. To the "average" user that might only have a few ace addons, does all this mass of libs really give an advantage, or is it bloat? Way back when Ace2 was started with the intent to make the libs transparent to the "average" user... is that really the case?
I don't see the point in getting bent out of shape about something which should be a hobby. If you're frustrated like that, you're probably in need of a break, or at least to distance yourself from whatever's pissing you off. There's no point in getting worked up because people get caught up in buzzwords and and make assumptions based on hearsay.
Anyone who's looked at Clique's code can see that it's well written (and I have :0). I've used Clique since I heard about it, and I don't plan on changing to anything else anytime soon. Still, I'm interested in seeing what they do with C2C.
For me, Ace libs have helped speed up what's generally the most time consuming part of any coding work I do: the GUI/Interface stuff. For that alone I'll probably write anything beyond the most simplistic scripts using the libs.
Anyway, I'll stop contributing to this threads derail now.
I don't see the point in getting bent out of shape about something which should be a hobby. If you're frustrated like that, you're probably in need of a break, or at least to distance yourself from whatever's pissing you off. There's no point in getting worked up because people get caught up in buzzwords and and make assumptions based on hearsay.
Anyone who's looked at Clique's code can see that it's well written (and I have :0). I've used Clique since I heard about it, and I don't plan on changing to anything else anytime soon. Still, I'm interested in seeing what they do with C2C.
For me, Ace libs have helped speed up what's generally the most time consuming part of any coding work I do: the GUI/Interface stuff. For that alone I'll probably write anything beyond the most simplistic scripts using the libs.
Anyway, I'll stop contributing to this threads derail now.
Here are my shoes? Want to walk a mile in them. If you think my getting "bent out of shape" is without cause, or due to some fault of my own, then you are sorely mistaken. If you could hear and read the things that are said about me by the very community I have poured my heart and time into for the past two years, maybe it would make a bit more sense to you.
If you plan on adding additional features, taking the addon in another direction etc that makes more sense to me. My confusion was mainly based on click2cast being (imo only) an addon which duplicated the features of clique without massive performance gains/size improvements and so on.
I personally code with the ace libraries as it provides me with a rapid development framework. I don't have any problems with there being multiple addons that have similar end results (ie. Grid, sraidframes, ctraid etc). I think unit frames are slightly different in that they usually present a different face to the user, where as click casting provides the same functionality and face (or lack of face), but click2cast and clique only seemed to have different configuration methods.
I would much rather see ag_unitframes polished off then effort spent here though. It kind of reminds me a little of how linux has a million different flavours (even within a distro) cause some people like their font 2 sizes smaller, but still isn't a serious desktop competitor. Whereas if there were more people working co-operativly on fewer distros then it might be a true windows replacement.
So I suppose I disagree slightly with Clad. I'd rather andreasg submitted some ideas to clad about a simple menu system then have an entirely seperate mod developed. If it all uses the same standards it should be alright though.
Just wanted to apologise unreservedly if anyone took my comments the wrong way. Anything in this post is only my opinion.
Exactly Tekkub.. I jumped the wagon quite "late", so I guess I missed the "we are better" period. In my original post I stated what my goals are, and how I aim to achieve them, possibly by a simpler approach, never do I claim it to be more efficient, so I do not fuel the old myth. In my opinion I do not see this thread "filled with ace fanboyism". There's actually people in here who downright discredit my addon just because Clique already exists.
I do not see myself as part of a major or minor political entity, and I'd rather not. I do my own thing and that's it.
No matter what approach or which libraries are used, bad coding will provide bad addons, and good coding will provide good addons. I'd like to think that the code I write myself is decent, and I believe Clad to be a great coder. I am still not sure why the old myth Tekkub mentions becomes an issue for exactly this addon type, click casting.
About Ace equivalents (and that's all they are, equivalents, they always take another design approach or gets removed), Ace equivalents have existed forever, AceHeal to CastParty (clickcast addons), CTRA to oRA, BigWigs to CT_Bossmods, sRaid, aguf to CTRA, Bartender to flex/discord/nurfed, OneBag to AllInOne and of course Fubar to Titan... As Tekkub mentions the efficiency myth has been known for a long time, so again I am not sure why exactly this thread becomes a major target for discussing it, even when I make sure to explain is just another one, follows the standards of the entire wow community and even aims at another set of users. That's what I am unsure of. Why my thread has to be a new big flare in this discussion when I do not care for the politics.
I had a response ag, but I've deleted it. You and I obviously read your original post in completely different ways. As I stated in my discussions before I even posted here, my issue isnt with your addon, it looks spectacular for what it does. As a result, I'll cease posting in this thread. Let me know if you want me to prune it.
If you plan on adding additional features, taking the addon in another direction etc that makes more sense to me. My confusion was mainly based on click2cast being (imo only) an addon which duplicated the features o
Wether or not it is smaller by being simpler can become a very scientific discussion. Lets not take it. It simply aims to be small.
One of the main things ag_UnitFrames users can look forward to is the C2C menu system and ag_UnitFrames menu system can cooperate, as they're both AceConsole. As a Priest and coder of a somewhat used unit frame addon, click casting is near to me. Integrating them is always something users ask for, and that is something that will now be possible for me, to create a complete solution, due to the design decisions I've made.
Other than those plans, I still have some thoughts about mouse keybinds in particular (and perhaps keyboard binds), without relation to clicking unit frames, but for mouse-over actions, for example.
I had a response ag, but I've deleted it. You and I obviously read your original post in completely different ways. As I stated in my discussions before I even posted here, my issue isnt with your addon, it looks spectacular for what it does. As a result, I'll cease posting in this thread. Let me know if you want me to prune it.
No, it's fine... If a discussion pops up it is probably because it needs to be taken... If there's anything in particular in my original post that you'd like to discuss, PM me on IRC. The least I'd like to is for drama to ensue over things we should enjoy ourselves with (coding, games), so if there's anything, take them up with me.
Regarding the whole "efficiency" thing in general... From now on I am quite sure that everyone will think twice and that no one will ever be saying "my code = better", but instead say "good code = better".
One could actually do 2 totally different approaches, tbh.
There are basically 6 "basic" key-combinations, right? Shift+LMB, Shift+RMB, and the same with Ctrl and with Alt again. Those 6 key-combinations are the ones 99.9% (I bet) of the Clique community started out with.
Now, if you get someone new to try Clique, they have to set up the spells themselves, and in the process often try relatively elaborate things (more modified seems to imply more power in the heads of some ^_^).
What one could do for a "minimized" addon is that the addon only has 6 combinations to bind spells to (the aforementioned), and "pre-loads" them depending on class, and ideally pops up a small intro-screen when you first load it.
Kinda an addon which needs 0 setting-up, and neither any user-configuation at all even later unless you are not satisfied with the default layout of spells/abilities.
Compared to that Clique would need setting up, but can do more. Right?
@Clad - as I stated above, I have no idea what has gone on between you and the Ace project so I won't even begin to comment on it. I do remember being chewed out by you on WoWI after I got PerfectRaid supported by an alternate clickcast mod called Smartheal Enhanced. Your stance then was "Clique already does that, and its my addon" which I found to be quite an absurd response given the code put in to PerfectRaid to support 3rd-party clicks.
I am no Ace fanboi. I agree with Tek... the goal of the shared library approach of Ace is to make available to mod developers a framework that, in theory, should make writing some of the tricky code much easier. You can still develop bloated and poorly written Ace mods... and I have stopped using some Ace mods because of it. I use non-Ace mods for certain functions because I prefer their functionality. For instance, I find Tuller to be a mod author that codes nice stuff. I use Bongos as my bar mod because it does exactly what I want. I have tried Bartender3 and while it's also a very nice bar mod, I prefer Bongos.
In that light, I tried Click2Cast last night and truly find it more usable, for my needs, than Clique. Is that saying that Clique sucks? Not at all. In the same way that I prefer Bongos over Bartender3 when they do exactly the same thing, I simply prefer the setup of C2C through the FuBar than I do the Clique through the spellbook.
Think of it as a vi/emacs thing... both edit files, but they approach it differently. Both have their fans and both can exist quite nicely without having the others be offended at its existence.
As for AG's original post... C2C is all of 4k right now and all it lacks from my point of view is the ability to ignore frames. The rest are all libs that I have loaded already. Is this saying that Clique is a bloated pig? Not in the slightest. All that AG is saying about C2C is that it's likely to consume less memory overall because it's small, focused and efficiently uses the Ace libraries as they are supposed to be used. Not in a fanboi sense, but in a reality sense.
Just for pointers, a couple of other currently working, currently updated click-casting mods:
Klik. Not really slim & light, more of a suite of mods, its unit frames portion doesn't really work, but it does click-cast fine.
Another: Healbot Continued. Even more gigantic, has a boatload of options, can cause lag if all options are enabled, provides its own frames to work.
And so on. Just because a mod provides click casting shouldn't be a reason for it not to exist, if there are other mods out there that provide such functionality. As long as it does it in its own unique way (GUI, other mod integration, options, or whatever), as both Click2Cast and the two above do. My opinion only ;).
New features: If you use ag_UnitFrames, you can access the configuration of clickcast actions through the ag_UnitFrames Menu! Any other Ace2 dev can add access to the menu in the same way if they feel like it.
Another thing I added today... Click2Cast can now bind spells and macros to KEYBOARD clicks. Invisible actionbars- kinda. Makes it very different from traditional clickcast addons.
zomg ag... that is an amazing tweak. I have charge and intercept bound and now I can just hit the key combo and BAM!! Very nice addition. Seems small but actually is huge. I take it that it will use your target or if none, then the player as the target of the spell?
zomg ag... that is an amazing tweak. I have charge and intercept bound and now I can just hit the key combo and BAM!! Very nice addition. Seems small but actually is huge. I take it that it will use your target or if none, then the player as the target of the spell?
If you have selfcasting enabled it will target the player self, if not it should give glowing hands (if it is a targetable spell).
It kind of reminds me a little of how linux has a million different flavours (even within a distro) cause some people like their font 2 sizes smaller, but still isn't a serious desktop competitor. Whereas if there were more people working co-operativly on fewer distros then it might be a true windows replacement.
//Sorry for offtopic.
Lol. I am linux user. U'r words are weird.
Linux distros have various:
1) Configuration methods (some ppl like configuring in terminal, some in GUI, etc)
2) Included software
3) Software repositories (most linux soft is downloading from big file-storages, something like Wowace Updater+wowace.com/files but much more powerful)
4) Phylosophy (few distros costs 15$, some can be absolutely free delivired to you), community etc...
There are distros for newbies (for example, Mandriva with graphical installation, extra easy configuring, very user-friendly), for professionals (for example, Gentoo with almost manual installation, compiling software before installation, etc) and so on.
Ppl dont use Linux just coze they afraid to try something new. It is a bit or much (according to disto) harder, but much more fast, flex and powerful. And it is absolutely free :P.
i am currently trying out c2c together with aguf and i am experiencing the same prob i also had with clique and aguf:
when i am trying to rebind the character/party menu (the one where promote, leave party etc. is in) to another button, say crtl + mouse4, i'm getting the aguf manu instead
is there any solution to this? (prolly i'm just a moron overlooking sth :D )
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To be quite blunt, this is what the "community" has lost... this attitude. We were making progress distancing ourselves from the "it's better because _I_ wrote it, so it must be better" attitude that Rowne (bless his furry little ass) tended to put out... and more towards an general attitude of "we try to make our mods smaller and faster". There's really a key difference between those two.
But that's the thing, at some point we drifted back into "it's Ace, therefore it's better"... and this is not good. There are a good deal of "Aced" mods that plain suck. We used to keep each other in line, read each other's code... share tips on making shit streamlined. Instead people have become too dependant on libraries without learning the underlying principals of those libraries (Compost anyone?). Authors are being lazy and expecting that their code is better because it runs on Ace. Completely ignoring the underlying libs, bad code is still bad code even when it uses Ace.
So what's my ranting... well I guess I'm trying to say ya all need to step back and look at the big picture. To the "average" user that might only have a few ace addons, does all this mass of libs really give an advantage, or is it bloat? Way back when Ace2 was started with the intent to make the libs transparent to the "average" user... is that really the case?
Anyone who's looked at Clique's code can see that it's well written (and I have :0). I've used Clique since I heard about it, and I don't plan on changing to anything else anytime soon. Still, I'm interested in seeing what they do with C2C.
For me, Ace libs have helped speed up what's generally the most time consuming part of any coding work I do: the GUI/Interface stuff. For that alone I'll probably write anything beyond the most simplistic scripts using the libs.
Anyway, I'll stop contributing to this threads derail now.
Here are my shoes? Want to walk a mile in them. If you think my getting "bent out of shape" is without cause, or due to some fault of my own, then you are sorely mistaken. If you could hear and read the things that are said about me by the very community I have poured my heart and time into for the past two years, maybe it would make a bit more sense to you.
"Easy for you to say" never meant so much.
If you plan on adding additional features, taking the addon in another direction etc that makes more sense to me. My confusion was mainly based on click2cast being (imo only) an addon which duplicated the features of clique without massive performance gains/size improvements and so on.
I personally code with the ace libraries as it provides me with a rapid development framework. I don't have any problems with there being multiple addons that have similar end results (ie. Grid, sraidframes, ctraid etc). I think unit frames are slightly different in that they usually present a different face to the user, where as click casting provides the same functionality and face (or lack of face), but click2cast and clique only seemed to have different configuration methods.
I would much rather see ag_unitframes polished off then effort spent here though. It kind of reminds me a little of how linux has a million different flavours (even within a distro) cause some people like their font 2 sizes smaller, but still isn't a serious desktop competitor. Whereas if there were more people working co-operativly on fewer distros then it might be a true windows replacement.
So I suppose I disagree slightly with Clad. I'd rather andreasg submitted some ideas to clad about a simple menu system then have an entirely seperate mod developed. If it all uses the same standards it should be alright though.
Just wanted to apologise unreservedly if anyone took my comments the wrong way. Anything in this post is only my opinion.
I do not see myself as part of a major or minor political entity, and I'd rather not. I do my own thing and that's it.
No matter what approach or which libraries are used, bad coding will provide bad addons, and good coding will provide good addons. I'd like to think that the code I write myself is decent, and I believe Clad to be a great coder. I am still not sure why the old myth Tekkub mentions becomes an issue for exactly this addon type, click casting.
About Ace equivalents (and that's all they are, equivalents, they always take another design approach or gets removed), Ace equivalents have existed forever, AceHeal to CastParty (clickcast addons), CTRA to oRA, BigWigs to CT_Bossmods, sRaid, aguf to CTRA, Bartender to flex/discord/nurfed, OneBag to AllInOne and of course Fubar to Titan... As Tekkub mentions the efficiency myth has been known for a long time, so again I am not sure why exactly this thread becomes a major target for discussing it, even when I make sure to explain is just another one, follows the standards of the entire wow community and even aims at another set of users. That's what I am unsure of. Why my thread has to be a new big flare in this discussion when I do not care for the politics.
Wether or not it is smaller by being simpler can become a very scientific discussion. Lets not take it. It simply aims to be small.
One of the main things ag_UnitFrames users can look forward to is the C2C menu system and ag_UnitFrames menu system can cooperate, as they're both AceConsole. As a Priest and coder of a somewhat used unit frame addon, click casting is near to me. Integrating them is always something users ask for, and that is something that will now be possible for me, to create a complete solution, due to the design decisions I've made.
Other than those plans, I still have some thoughts about mouse keybinds in particular (and perhaps keyboard binds), without relation to clicking unit frames, but for mouse-over actions, for example.
No, it's fine... If a discussion pops up it is probably because it needs to be taken... If there's anything in particular in my original post that you'd like to discuss, PM me on IRC. The least I'd like to is for drama to ensue over things we should enjoy ourselves with (coding, games), so if there's anything, take them up with me.
Regarding the whole "efficiency" thing in general... From now on I am quite sure that everyone will think twice and that no one will ever be saying "my code = better", but instead say "good code = better".
There are basically 6 "basic" key-combinations, right? Shift+LMB, Shift+RMB, and the same with Ctrl and with Alt again. Those 6 key-combinations are the ones 99.9% (I bet) of the Clique community started out with.
Now, if you get someone new to try Clique, they have to set up the spells themselves, and in the process often try relatively elaborate things (more modified seems to imply more power in the heads of some ^_^).
What one could do for a "minimized" addon is that the addon only has 6 combinations to bind spells to (the aforementioned), and "pre-loads" them depending on class, and ideally pops up a small intro-screen when you first load it.
Kinda an addon which needs 0 setting-up, and neither any user-configuation at all even later unless you are not satisfied with the default layout of spells/abilities.
Compared to that Clique would need setting up, but can do more. Right?
@Clad - as I stated above, I have no idea what has gone on between you and the Ace project so I won't even begin to comment on it. I do remember being chewed out by you on WoWI after I got PerfectRaid supported by an alternate clickcast mod called Smartheal Enhanced. Your stance then was "Clique already does that, and its my addon" which I found to be quite an absurd response given the code put in to PerfectRaid to support 3rd-party clicks.
I am no Ace fanboi. I agree with Tek... the goal of the shared library approach of Ace is to make available to mod developers a framework that, in theory, should make writing some of the tricky code much easier. You can still develop bloated and poorly written Ace mods... and I have stopped using some Ace mods because of it. I use non-Ace mods for certain functions because I prefer their functionality. For instance, I find Tuller to be a mod author that codes nice stuff. I use Bongos as my bar mod because it does exactly what I want. I have tried Bartender3 and while it's also a very nice bar mod, I prefer Bongos.
In that light, I tried Click2Cast last night and truly find it more usable, for my needs, than Clique. Is that saying that Clique sucks? Not at all. In the same way that I prefer Bongos over Bartender3 when they do exactly the same thing, I simply prefer the setup of C2C through the FuBar than I do the Clique through the spellbook.
Think of it as a vi/emacs thing... both edit files, but they approach it differently. Both have their fans and both can exist quite nicely without having the others be offended at its existence.
As for AG's original post... C2C is all of 4k right now and all it lacks from my point of view is the ability to ignore frames. The rest are all libs that I have loaded already. Is this saying that Clique is a bloated pig? Not in the slightest. All that AG is saying about C2C is that it's likely to consume less memory overall because it's small, focused and efficiently uses the Ace libraries as they are supposed to be used. Not in a fanboi sense, but in a reality sense.
Klik. Not really slim & light, more of a suite of mods, its unit frames portion doesn't really work, but it does click-cast fine.
Another: Healbot Continued. Even more gigantic, has a boatload of options, can cause lag if all options are enabled, provides its own frames to work.
And so on. Just because a mod provides click casting shouldn't be a reason for it not to exist, if there are other mods out there that provide such functionality. As long as it does it in its own unique way (GUI, other mod integration, options, or whatever), as both Click2Cast and the two above do. My opinion only ;).
If you have selfcasting enabled it will target the player self, if not it should give glowing hands (if it is a targetable spell).
//Sorry for offtopic.
Lol. I am linux user. U'r words are weird.
Linux distros have various:
1) Configuration methods (some ppl like configuring in terminal, some in GUI, etc)
2) Included software
3) Software repositories (most linux soft is downloading from big file-storages, something like Wowace Updater+wowace.com/files but much more powerful)
4) Phylosophy (few distros costs 15$, some can be absolutely free delivired to you), community etc...
There are distros for newbies (for example, Mandriva with graphical installation, extra easy configuring, very user-friendly), for professionals (for example, Gentoo with almost manual installation, compiling software before installation, etc) and so on.
Ppl dont use Linux just coze they afraid to try something new. It is a bit or much (according to disto) harder, but much more fast, flex and powerful. And it is absolutely free :P.
Sry for offtopic again. Linux roxx.
Now decursing raid should be very easy.
Keyboard bindings won't target the unit frame your mouse is over though, unless you create a macro called /cast [target=mouseover] Dispel Magic.
Remember that the keyboard macros doesn't take code, but needs a name or id of a macro created with the blizzard macro editor.
i am currently trying out c2c together with aguf and i am experiencing the same prob i also had with clique and aguf:
when i am trying to rebind the character/party menu (the one where promote, leave party etc. is in) to another button, say crtl + mouse4, i'm getting the aguf manu instead
is there any solution to this? (prolly i'm just a moron overlooking sth :D )