The only reason NECB is the only mod to track DR is because it decided it was worth the effort, even thought it's not a 100% accurate thing and a general pain to do. Once 2.4 hits I guarantee you more mods will start to pop up that go off of combat log data, assuming PoTBS doesn't become more fun then WoW I'll likely end up doing some sort of small DR tracker for 2.4 since it becomes childs play compared to a test of trying not to /wrist.
while we're on the subject of DR, what exact implimentation would people like to see? i mean, NECB's bars for diminishing returns looks really nice (1/2) bars etc BUT, what would be ideal ? At the moment SpellReminder just adjusts its bars for the actual time remaining, but doesnt give any alert for diminishing returns... it would however be reasonably simple for me to add a warning for when DR is occurring, or maybe a bar showing the time until DR will no longer occur.
while we're on the subject of DR, what exact implimentation would people like to see? i mean, NECB's bars for diminishing returns looks really nice (1/2) bars etc BUT, what would be ideal ? At the moment SpellReminder just adjusts its bars for the actual time remaining, but doesnt give any alert for diminishing returns... it would however be reasonably simple for me to add a warning for when DR is occurring, or maybe a bar showing the time until DR will no longer occur.
Any thoughts?
Oridan
Personally I didn't think much about the ideal look for this, probably using bars is the most accepted and easy way to do it.
Regarding adding DR to SpellReminder, I'm not sure is that easy. As I understand it, SpellReminder tracks what you cast yourself, however for a proper DR counter you'd need to track what others around you are doing. For example, let's say you're a warlock and play with a priest, Fear and Psychic Scream share DR, so you need to track both yours and your partner's spells.
I might be wrong and SpellReminder already has support for other players spells, in which case disregard this post. But I wanted to clear potential misunderstandings. :)
In any case, if you do add DR counters to SpellReminder, I'm sure many people will be thankful!
You're right that SR only tracks spells you cast yourself. and at the moment, the only real effect you will see from DR in spellreminder is that the bar will show the adjusted time *when* you use that ability. so, say your warlock friend uses Fear. if you then Scream them, the SpellReminder timer bar will be lowered to match the DR time.
however, what i'm considering is this:
SpellReminder knows how long the spell *should* last, if the debuff then reports a lower time, then i can assume that diminishing returns are affecting that ability (ofc, considering spell rank), and i can pop a 15second timer for that DR fallout. Which will then be renewed if the spell is re-detected at a lower time than expected.
Also, i should be able to easily detect how much of a dimishing effect is currently active, based on (time reduction / total time), and apply a figure to the bar according. EG: Scream = 8 seconds. my scream reported 2 seconds instead of 8, i know that DR is effecting my scream to 0.25%, or 3 "applications".
Don't you have a thread somewhere about your addon?
I like how you're using the catchy thread title (necb) to conduct "business". ^^
/em sets up shop next to the mall
PS. I'm doing this thread a service by gently "nudging" it toward locked status.. it's derailing more by the minute.
If you'll allow me to quote the original topic:
... even though its still usable up until then i was wondering if there is a Ace mod that can take its place, or even if another Author would consider taking over NECB?
I dont think i need to explain why its perfectly fine for me to propose and/or gather suggestions for my addon. Just as others have suggested addons such as ClassTimer and Chronometer.
I'm wondering for what reason you're trying to "derail" the topic. Or, did you have another problem?
Thanks for all your lovely comments! It has been such a great time. If I only had more spare time - on the other hand it is great to have a good and pushing employment!
I added the three most potential people to the list of authors!
Quote from Beladona@Curse »
I am not sure what road I will take yet. I guess that all depends on what decision the other two make. If they want to work together I would be open to the idea, but I am also completely fine with continuing a forked version of my own. Either way we will come up with a new name so as to alleviate your fears.
I mainly just want the project to continue and to be done well. Too many people use it for it to die...
Quote from Limited@Curse »
I'm happy to work with the other authors on this to make it work. Can slap it into SVN and away we go! :)
Quote from Funkydude@Curse »
beladona + Limited is there somewhere we can chat in real time irc/msn whatever you prefer so we can discuss it further.
Quote from Limited »
Sure, you can grab me on QuakeNET, nickname is "Limi"
Quote from Beladona »
I am always on IRC on Freenode. You can find me in #wowi-lounge among other places.
I will get on QuakeNet also so i can find Limited.
In other words... if a replacement for necb is needed it's not because it will die, this concern has been addressed and very capable people are already sorting out how they'll continue development.
There's other threads asking for necb replacements for whatever other reasons.
Quote from oridan »
I'm wondering for what reason you're trying to "derail" the topic. Or, did you have another problem?
I hadn't thought about it.. but now that you mention it might have something to do with your signature :)
Last post from me here, sorry if I ruffled any feathers I won't "derail" it further.
i dont think its possible to further derail it. You obviously have some delusions that people should and must use the "top ten" addons only.
i never used NECB, but i've seen it and it looks truly great. I'm not saying my addon is better, infact it doesnt touch on it as a whole. It doesnt touch on a few similar addons.
I honestly cant see why you've targetted me for your rant tonight, but if its down to my signature then i'm sorry. For your information, it mayaswell not be there, no doubt that pleases you to know.
Enough of this anyway, and congratulations on upsetting someone who's only tried to do what he can to fill a hole in the addon "supermarket".
I must be having my "being an ass**** day"... I'll apologize as nowhere in my - admittedly confrontational - posts
did I intend to belittle your addon or the fact that you're sharing your work.
(If that's what's coming out of it, my bad)
I'm sure it's very nice (as posts on its own thread show).
Edit: I'd remove my posts but it would remove context from the replies too.. so meh
We know every addon has fans, and non-fans (for lack of less strong word having a meaning such as non-fan). Point is, Necb is being taken over for 2.4, so it'll be ok at one point. And there are alternatives out there as well, they may be as good, may not be as good or may be better even.
SpellReminder knows how long the spell *should* last, if the debuff then reports a lower time, then i can assume that diminishing returns are affecting that ability (ofc, considering spell rank), and i can pop a 15second timer for that DR fallout. Which will then be renewed if the spell is re-detected at a lower time than expected.
Also, i should be able to easily detect how much of a dimishing effect is currently active, based on (time reduction / total time), and apply a figure to the bar according. EG: Scream = 8 seconds. my scream reported 2 seconds instead of 8, i know that DR is effecting my scream to 0.25%, or 3 "applications".
Does that sound reasonable?
I didn't get the chance to reply earlier, and I'm not sure anymore if you're still interested in this, but I'll just reply anyway.
The method you describe does work better than simply monitoring DRs on the spells you cast, however is not foolproof. For example, if I cast Fear and duration is 5 seconds, it means is the first Fear on DR. So the 15 seconds timer pops up, at the end of it I cast Fear again. But if the priest casts Psychic Scream during those 15 seconds, the target is immune while the DR timer tells me it shouldn't be.
Your method would work if you're the last one to cast before the target becomes immune, though your partner is in trouble then since he can't see the DR himself.
I hope it makes sense. I believe there's no way around monitoring what other players cast if you want to make an accurate DR timer (within the limits of WoW API). The other way would be to have all members of the party run the addon (assuming arena) and add synchronization between them, and then the DR timers should be accurate all the time.
Thats a good point, i overlooked that. The only *true* way to track diminishing returns would be if an addon was aware of all shared debuff abilities across the classes, and was watching the combat log... Strictly speaking, its a fairly simple addon to write. Especially for pvp like arena or BG where all targets have a unique name. (PvE would be a little more awkward due to mobs sharing the same name). However, until we have some more info on the 2.4 combatlog we can only speculate. I shall not impliment anything at this time. But at 2.4 i may well write a standalone DR tracker, depeding on my workload and the demand for one. Here's to hoping NECB flourishes once more, and good luck to all who are taking on the task of maintaining it.
Yeah, the addon has to monitor the combat log and know what effects share DR.
The reason I mentioned synchronization is because of the way refreshing debuffs happens. Taking the priest/warlock example again, say the warlock casts Fear, then before it runs out, he recasts Fear. There's no combat log event that says the target has been feared again. It's doable to monitor this correctly from the warlock's perspective, however the priest will have no idea since the combat log doesn't mention it.
It might be that post 2.4 combat log changes will introduce the extra information needed to detect debuff refreshing. I haven't seen anything official on this topic, so like you said, we can only speculate. If that doesn't happen, the only way to do it accurately is to have everyone run the addon and synchronize.
Regarding the unique names in PvP, there's 1 exception to this that I can think of right now: hunters. A lot of them name their pets after themselves specifically to confuse addons, mainly targetting through arena frames. I'm not certain if the enemy pet-related events are same as for enemy players, but if they are, that would add extra difficulty. Otherwise PvE is not a concern since diminishing returns only apply to PvP.
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Curse PremiumAny thoughts?
Oridan
Personally I didn't think much about the ideal look for this, probably using bars is the most accepted and easy way to do it.
Regarding adding DR to SpellReminder, I'm not sure is that easy. As I understand it, SpellReminder tracks what you cast yourself, however for a proper DR counter you'd need to track what others around you are doing. For example, let's say you're a warlock and play with a priest, Fear and Psychic Scream share DR, so you need to track both yours and your partner's spells.
I might be wrong and SpellReminder already has support for other players spells, in which case disregard this post. But I wanted to clear potential misunderstandings. :)
In any case, if you do add DR counters to SpellReminder, I'm sure many people will be thankful!
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Curse Premiumhowever, what i'm considering is this:
SpellReminder knows how long the spell *should* last, if the debuff then reports a lower time, then i can assume that diminishing returns are affecting that ability (ofc, considering spell rank), and i can pop a 15second timer for that DR fallout. Which will then be renewed if the spell is re-detected at a lower time than expected.
Also, i should be able to easily detect how much of a dimishing effect is currently active, based on (time reduction / total time), and apply a figure to the bar according. EG: Scream = 8 seconds. my scream reported 2 seconds instead of 8, i know that DR is effecting my scream to 0.25%, or 3 "applications".
Does that sound reasonable?
I like how you're using the catchy thread title (necb) to conduct "business". ^^
/em sets up shop next to the mall
PS. I'm doing this thread a service by gently "nudging" it toward locked status.. it's derailing more by the minute.
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Curse PremiumIf you'll allow me to quote the original topic:
I dont think i need to explain why its perfectly fine for me to propose and/or gather suggestions for my addon. Just as others have suggested addons such as ClassTimer and Chronometer.
I'm wondering for what reason you're trying to "derail" the topic. Or, did you have another problem?
In other words... if a replacement for necb is needed it's not because it will die, this concern has been addressed and very capable people are already sorting out how they'll continue development.
There's other threads asking for necb replacements for whatever other reasons.
I hadn't thought about it.. but now that you mention it might have something to do with your signature :)
Last post from me here, sorry if I ruffled any feathers I won't "derail" it further.
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Curse Premiumi never used NECB, but i've seen it and it looks truly great. I'm not saying my addon is better, infact it doesnt touch on it as a whole. It doesnt touch on a few similar addons.
I honestly cant see why you've targetted me for your rant tonight, but if its down to my signature then i'm sorry. For your information, it mayaswell not be there, no doubt that pleases you to know.
Enough of this anyway, and congratulations on upsetting someone who's only tried to do what he can to fill a hole in the addon "supermarket".
did I intend to belittle your addon or the fact that you're sharing your work.
(If that's what's coming out of it, my bad)
I'm sure it's very nice (as posts on its own thread show).
Edit: I'd remove my posts but it would remove context from the replies too.. so meh
We know every addon has fans, and non-fans (for lack of less strong word having a meaning such as non-fan). Point is, Necb is being taken over for 2.4, so it'll be ok at one point. And there are alternatives out there as well, they may be as good, may not be as good or may be better even.
:)
I didn't get the chance to reply earlier, and I'm not sure anymore if you're still interested in this, but I'll just reply anyway.
The method you describe does work better than simply monitoring DRs on the spells you cast, however is not foolproof. For example, if I cast Fear and duration is 5 seconds, it means is the first Fear on DR. So the 15 seconds timer pops up, at the end of it I cast Fear again. But if the priest casts Psychic Scream during those 15 seconds, the target is immune while the DR timer tells me it shouldn't be.
Your method would work if you're the last one to cast before the target becomes immune, though your partner is in trouble then since he can't see the DR himself.
I hope it makes sense. I believe there's no way around monitoring what other players cast if you want to make an accurate DR timer (within the limits of WoW API). The other way would be to have all members of the party run the addon (assuming arena) and add synchronization between them, and then the DR timers should be accurate all the time.
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Curse PremiumYeah, the addon has to monitor the combat log and know what effects share DR.
The reason I mentioned synchronization is because of the way refreshing debuffs happens. Taking the priest/warlock example again, say the warlock casts Fear, then before it runs out, he recasts Fear. There's no combat log event that says the target has been feared again. It's doable to monitor this correctly from the warlock's perspective, however the priest will have no idea since the combat log doesn't mention it.
It might be that post 2.4 combat log changes will introduce the extra information needed to detect debuff refreshing. I haven't seen anything official on this topic, so like you said, we can only speculate. If that doesn't happen, the only way to do it accurately is to have everyone run the addon and synchronize.
Regarding the unique names in PvP, there's 1 exception to this that I can think of right now: hunters. A lot of them name their pets after themselves specifically to confuse addons, mainly targetting through arena frames. I'm not certain if the enemy pet-related events are same as for enemy players, but if they are, that would add extra difficulty. Otherwise PvE is not a concern since diminishing returns only apply to PvP.