Bigotry is the appropriate term. The subject matter of the discussion is irrelevant. If you're unable to see the other guys point of view; if you're going to talk in absolutes (such-and-such IS this way) without reference to the fact that it's all a matter of point of view and this is just yours; then yes, you are being bigoted.
No, sorry, "bigotry" is a term especially used to describe racial or religious intolerances. Which this certainly isn't. So end it, dude.
And no, I was not speaking in absolutes. Only would it be so to those who have difficult telling the difference between stated opinions and "pronouncements". Which is apparently the case here. It also shouldn't be necessary to spell out to people that it is a point of view.
"Unable to see the other guy's point of view"? As you've selectively ignored, I've stated many times that if you want all the features of Auctioneer along with the memory/CPU usage that comes along with it, its a choice. If you don't, there are other choices.
Quote from Kal »
The inherent bias in this statement has already been noted, but I'd also like to add that with a statement like this you only need to find one example counter to it to falsify it.
Only if you are really aching to get into a fight. Apparently my "...lacking unneeded crap..." joking statement about Auctioneer has some people riled up :P.
Quote from Kal »
It may not be the best example, but I personally use both mods (albeit not at the same time) as each mod fulfils different requirements for me. I don't find the extra features Auctioneer provides to be useless; those features are of course why I continue to use the mod despite KCI's lower memory overhead. It is extremely improbable that I am alone in that position.
As I've mentioned continually here, many people don't need the extra Auctioneer features. But there are many that do. Again, don't try taking this as a "pronouncement" or "fact". The "...many people don't..." thing comes from long (long) experiences testing Auctioneer, KC_Items, AuctionSync, WowEcon, etc. mods, getting feedback from such mod users and its stated as an experienced-based opinion only. Am relating it as my experiences with many people, not what I "think many people should do". It is not some sort of personal judgment call.
Like I said, if you like Auctioneer & its features (& its unfortunate CPU/memory bloat), go nuts. For those who want a far more efficient alternative, KC_Items can often fit the bill." "But of course, everyone has different needs and/or wants." And so on.
Quote from Kal »
What exactly is nonsensical about the analogy? Your point was that KC_Items uses less memory; others replied that it provided less functionality, and you then argued that you don't "need" the extra functionality. You don't put a stereo in a car to make it drivable, you put it in so you can listen to music and so on, as you note. The analogy is accurate; you don't use the extra UI memory to display median prices or any of the other functions provided so adequately by KC_Items - you use it for the extra "listening to music" stuff.
Wrong. Have you ever looked inside an Auctioneer saved variable LUA? The vast majority of it is taken up by auction data saved in an inefficient format. Its not the extra features taking up the memory, its the loading of that mass of saved variable auction data.
And no, I've never been arguing that "people don't need" the extra Auctioneer functionality. Yet again, you are misinterpreting (intentionally or not) what I have said as some sort of pronouncement. As above: "As I've mentioned continually here, many people don't need the extra Auctioneer features. But there are many that do. Again, don't try taking this as a "pronouncement" or "fact". The "...many people don't..." thing comes from long (long) experiences testing Auctioneer, KC_Items, AuctionSync, WowEcon, etc. mods, getting feedback from such mod users and its stated as an experienced-based opinion only. Am relating it as my experiences with many people, not what I "think many people should do". It is not some sort of personal judgment call."
Some people may want those extra features and are willing to live with the excessive resource usage that comes along with it. Some may do just fine without them.
Quote from Kal »
KC_Items provides a reduced subset of the functionality of Auctioneer. Those features that it duplicates it does so considerably more efficiently. We agree there. However it does not provide the same features as Auctioneer and so it may well not fit the OPs requirement.
I have no problem whatsoever with you trying to help the OP out by letting him know that there is a more efficient, lower memory mod that might fit his requirements if he doesn't need all the extra features, but you are crossing a line when you start telling other people what they do and don't need. You're welcome to your point of view but please stop stating it as fact.
Yet again, I'm not "telling people what they do and don't need" or "stating things as facts", geeze. As above: As I've mentioned continually here, many people don't need the extra Auctioneer features. But there are many that do. Again, don't try taking this as a "pronouncement" or "fact". The "...many people don't..." thing comes from long (long) experiences testing Auctioneer, KC_Items, AuctionSync, WowEcon, etc. mods, getting feedback from such mod users and its stated as an experienced-based opinion only. Am relating it as my experiences with many people, not what I "think many people should do". It is not some sort of personal judgment call."
Does KC_Items (or some other mod that links with it) provide the auction feedback like auctioneer?
i.e. when someone pm's me with ?[itemname] it pm's them back with the auction information (prices, how many times seen, median etc.)
That is basically the only thing besides actually recording the auctions and being able to see the data every time I scroll over an item (or quickly be able to hold down a button to see auction info on that item).
No, sorry, "bigotry" is a term especially used to describe racial or religious intolerances. Which this certainly isn't. So end it, dude.
big?ot?ry /ˈbɪgətri/
1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
2. the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot.
Bigotry has absolutely nothing inherently to do with racial or religious intolerances although of course those are areas where it often crops up. It is a "subject matter agnostic" term and only refers to the intolerance of other opinions, not what those opinions are. Go look in your own dictionary if you still don't believe me - the above definition is from dictionary.com; MW and the OED both have similar definitions.
Quote from Zidomo »
And no, I was not speaking in absolutes.
Several times in your posts you have said such-and-such IS one way or IS another; Auctioneer IS bloated, it's extra features ARE unnecessary. Your statement that "everyone who uses KC_Items regularly thinks the extra features in Auctioneer are unneeded" is an example. You do it again with your most recent post - the saved variable data IS stored in an inefficient format. That seems like talking in absolutes to me.
Quote from Zidomo »
Have you ever looked inside an Auctioneer saved variable LUA? The vast majority of it is taken up by auction data saved in an inefficient format. Its not the extra features taking up the memory, its the loading of that mass of saved variable auction data.
And that mass of auction data needs to be loaded into to memory all at once in order to enable some of those extra features that you dismiss and KC_Items lacks. There simply isn't any other way to do it - or at least, no-one has figured out a way yet. KC_Items makes the choice not to include those features to avoid the memory overhead; Auctioneer sucks up the hit in memory to provide the extra functionality. There doesn't seem to be any way you can get the one without the other.
Also, please give specifics - as you noted before, these are the Ace2 boards, you can expect a reasonable level of competence from your audience and you won't frighten us away with a discussion of code. Exactly how is the format in which Auctioneer stores data inefficient? Please explain one way in which the data storage format could be improved whilst retaining identical functionality.
You also haven't answered me with regards to your statement that my car analogy was nonsensical. Exactly what was nonsensical about the car analogy?
Quote from Zidomo »
And no, I've never been arguing that "people don't need" the extra Auctioneer functionality.
Fine, I'll take that at face value. I do think we mostly agree - my "bottom line" to the OP in my last post and your summary in your last post read pretty similarly. However I don't seem to be the only one who is getting the wrong impression from your posts - check some of the other responses on this thread.
EDIT: Ok, here's the problem, right here:
Yep, lots of people want features-features-features in software, whether or not they are actually used or needed to do a job satisfactorily. There is a big difference between "needed-to-do-a-job features" and "extra features/crap out the wazoo, with the associated bloat, that aren't actually necessary to do the job for many/most people" Wink. But of course, everyone has different needs and/or wants.
Yes, you do indeed say at the end, "everyone has different needs", fair enough. But the assumptions underlying the rest of your statements are very obvious and they belie that point of view. The extra features Auctioneer has over KC_Items are just "features-features-features" and not used or needed to do the job. Auctioneer has "extra features/crap out the wazoo". Your frequent statements that "many/most people" don't need those features is just a simple ad populum. And so on. You make it pretty clear that although you're willing to give lip service to the idea that "everyone has different needs or wants" that in fact you think those people whose opinions differ from your own are misguided, and you want to show them the error of their ways by introducing them to KCI. If that isn't bigotry then I don't know what is.
Bigotry has absolutely nothing inherently to do with racial or religious intolerances although of course those are areas where it often crops up. It is a "subject matter agnostic" term and only refers to the intolerance of other opinions, not what those opinions are. Go look in your own dictionary if you still don't believe me - the above definition is from dictionary.com; MW and the OED both have similar definitions.
No, sorry, bigot is not "subject matter agnostic". In fact, Merriam-Webster is where the "especially one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance" comes from. Its a very inflammatory term in many societies and cultures.
I'm completely open to what others think about things (anything really :)). If you refuse to see that because I brought up points you disagree with or oddly touched off nerves in you, that's your problem. So get lost dude; I'm not wasting any more time trying to clarify what I said with someone who wishes to throw around inflammatory insults.
From my previous post, for others: "As above: As I've mentioned continually here, many people don't need the extra Auctioneer features. But there are many that do. Again, don't try taking this as a "pronouncement" or "fact". The "...many people don't..." thing comes from long (long) experiences testing Auctioneer, KC_Items, AuctionSync, WowEcon, etc. mods, getting feedback from such mod users and its stated as an experienced-based opinion only. Am relating it as my experiences with many people, not what I "think many people should do". It is not some sort of personal judgment call."
Does KC_Items (or some other mod that links with it) provide the auction feedback like auctioneer?
i.e. when someone pm's me with ?[itemname] it pm's them back with the auction information (prices, how many times seen, median etc.)
That is basically the only thing besides actually recording the auctions and being able to see the data every time I scroll over an item (or quickly be able to hold down a button to see auction info on that item).
No, the current KC_Items doesn't have that feature. The earlier Ace1 version didn't either. Don't know of any seperate mods that can provide such functionality to it yet. An auction data information transfer facility might be a nice addition in the future.
Best you can do right now with KC_Items is have someone send you the item link, click it (or mouse-over with tekKompare) then tell them back what the AH data you have on it is.
What's actually kinda funny is that KCI does not display it's additional pricing-tooltip for me if I click a link in chat. In 100% of all other situations it works, but linked items in chat don't display it. :/
No, sorry, bigot is not "subject matter agnostic". In fact, Merriam-Webster is where the "especially one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance" comes from. Its a very inflammatory term in many societies and cultures.
We'll have to agree to disagree then; I believe "as a racial or ethnic group" is given in MW as an example of what bigotry can refer to; those are not the only possibilities. The term refers to being intolerant of other peoples beliefs or points of view regardless of whether or not those beliefs are religious or race-related in nature.
From wikipedia (hardly canonical, I know, but still):
A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own.
The origin of the word bigot in English dates back to at least 1598, via Middle French, and started with the sense of "religious hypocrite", especially a woman. Bigot is often used as a pejorative term against a person who is obstinately devoted to prejudices even when these views are challenged or proven to be false.
Forms of bigotry may have a related ideology or world views.
Again, the term is subject-matter agnostic, as I stated earlier. It has absolutely nothing to do with religion or race in itself, those are simply the most common areas where it crops up. My usage of the term was both appropriate and accurate. This is the last I will say on the subject; if you are unable to accept that you are mistaken even when (relatively) authoritative sources say something different then nothing I can say will persuade you.
I note that you still haven't backed up your opinion, stated as fact, that Auctioneer's data-storage format is inefficient, nor have you explained exactly why my car analogy was "nonsensical". "Obstinately devoted to prejudices even when these views are challenged or proven to be false...."
Yes, I'm through with that guy. Its really not worth the effort; a complete waste of time.
As to the KC_Items tooltip not showing up in chat: yes, I have heard that happening with one user here. It shows up fine mousing over items in bags or the AH, but not for chat links.
Hasn't ever happened for me personally or anyone else here (chat links work fine), so can't do extensive debugging here. Am trying to work through it with the one person, however. Most likely a conflict with another tooltip mod. Initial steps to find the issue (if you know or have done all this, just ignore ;)):
--be sure you have the latest Ace2 SVN revision of KC_Items (currently r45124 from July 28/07).
--be positive you have seen the item in either an AH scan or heading to the vendor. The KC seperate tooltip won't show up if there is no auction info or sell values to show.
--disable any mod that modifies item tooltips (EnhTooltip, TipBuddy, etc.) either one at a time or in groups (if you have a lot of them).
--After disabling the tooltip mods, then relogging, link a common item in guild/officer/say/etc. chat (mana/health potions, etc.) and try it out. If its still happening after having disabled all your tooltip mods, start disabling other mods in groups/one at a time until you find the culprit.
Yes, I'm through with that guy. Its really not worth the effort; a complete waste of time.
Why? He simply stated that your recommendation did not meet the OP's request and you went berserk. He called you a bigot, I tend to agree. He challenged you on your coding statement which you apparently made hoping no one would challenge you on it (since you don't seem to know anything about it at all).
I'm in this thread looking for the same thing the OP is. An alternative with the same functionality as Auctioneer. Not reduced functionality. Not your ridiculous viewpoint of more "efficient" functionality. All you did was fill this thread with venom from your first post and you ruined what helpfulness it could have provided.
Semantics aside, it would be nice to get back to the main discussion...
AuctionFilterPlus shows good and bad deals, ala Auctioneer (actually, better than Auctioneer IMO)...but either it's buggy or else it doesn't play nicely with the other addons I use. It won't remember settings and scrolling the auction window removes the "good", "bad", "average" notations.
AHsearch and AuctionSort, both on the SVN, complement KCI nicely.
Like the mod you are currently using, it gives you median auction prices (both min bid & buyout) for both "recent" & "historical" scans in a separate tooltip attached to the main item tooltip. Hover (using tekKompare or similar) or click the item link; the main tooltip shows up with the KC_Items tooltip attached below it. It also provides vendor prices for items in that tooltip.
You do AH (auction house) price scans in the same way you do with Auctioneer. Open up the AH window and you will have a small frame attached to the bottom right of the window. Click the "Scan" button, sit back for 10-15 minutes (or less, depending on how many categories you scan) and wait for it to complete. In a couple of weeks, you will get accurate AH median prices.
The one thing it doesn't currently provide that Auctioneer does is a listing in the seperate tooltip of exactly how many times an item has been seen in scans. The aforementioned "recent" & "historical" auction median min bid/buyout prices do the job instead (and works just fine).
Also, KC_Items's integrated Fence module (also available separately here) provides:
--remembering & auto-filling of your own auction prices/times in the AH window
--auto-searching
--an auto-buy function
--sets a price limit for bids and warns you about it when the limit has been reached
--provides "bookmarks" for searches
--shows both price per item and whether someone has placed a bid on the item
--a new column in the AH window to sort items by name.
So if you want an Auctioneer-like mod that provides what you need to get a handle on AH median prices, among other features, and doesn't bloat your memory & CPU usage like a pig, KC_Items is what to use.
You mention median prices several times in your post. I'm unable to find a way to display median prices using KC_Items. Maybe I'm missing an important module. It does show the lowest bid and highest buyout prices for items, but there are many factors that cause those prices to be unreliable. Here are just a few off the top of my head:
an accidental underpricing error
an intentional outrageously low bidding price, to start a bidding war
an attempt to take advantage of careless clickers by putting a 20g buyout price on an item worth 20s
If any of these situations ever happen even once for an item, the average recent minimum and maximum prices won't actually give a good picture of the market. As soon as those recent prices make it to the "historical" phase, it will forever be skewed by those outliers.
A median price would dampen the impact of these outlying data, and in general, would give a clearer picture of an item's overall value in the market. I would gladly give up an "average minimum" and "average maximum" for a more reliable median. Knowing the number of samples used to obtain the median (and the min and max too, for that matter) can help you estimate at a glance how reliable those statistics are. Not to mention it provides a decent idea of the item's rarity on the market, if you scan often.
True medians cannot be calculated without saving an entire dataset every time new samples are added, or at the very least, the frequency distribution function describing that dataset. (Frequency distribution functions unfortunately tend to decay over time as they are added together; they begin to lose precision and curves will tend to flatten, eventually distorting the median.)
The verion of KC_Items you linked to seems to still be in beta, as discussed in this thread: http://www.wowace.com/forums/index.php?topic=6961.0. Since you seem to speak very authoritatively about this addon, maybe you're using a different version that calculates and displays medians you could point me to?
You mention median prices several times in your post. I'm unable to find a way to display median prices using KC_Items. Maybe I'm missing an important module. It does show the lowest bid and highest buyout prices for items, but there are many factors that cause those prices to be unreliable. Here are just a few off the top of my head:.... Since you seem to speak very authoritatively about this addon, maybe you're using a different version that calculates and displays medians you could point me to?
Why do you automatically assume that medians are not being used and unreliable "averages" (or whatever) are?
Maybe ask the author (Kaelten) yourself exactly what formulas he uses for displaying prices (or study the LUA files yourself if you are totally fluent in LUA)? I'm not privy to the information.
No, "average recent minimum and maximum prices" or "lowest bid and highest buyout prices" are not what is shown in the tooltip. What the tooltip shows is both historical & recent high & low _ranges_ for both minimum bids & buyouts. AFAIK, yes, based on what I have seen in both the KC_Items.lua & AuctionSpy.lua files, medians are used for those ranges. As are means, weighted means & standard deviations. As well as some method(s) to account for "decay". Also, in the past (Ace 1 version), bell curves were used to limit outliers. That has likely changed & improved in the new Ace2 version ("BellFilters" & "BellMeans"). You can look in those files yourself to get a grasp on what is used.
The tooltip information would be useless if only "averages" were considered. Best to ask Kaelten yourself if you are interested in more detail.
Wow, what a thread. I was reading this, hoping to find what the OP was looking for. I've used KC_Items with Fence, while I love it, I miss 2 features. The BottomScan option from Auctioneer and the display of what an item is used for (some grey items can be quite valuable to specific professions or classes). Now going over the thread I saw Mendeleev noted, and Tekkompare (I used to use EQCompare but left it for what it was in a desperate attempt to lower my memory usage, which now circles around 30MB).
Based on tips from others in the thread, I'll try the Auctioneer on AH Alt, hoping it will help. Or just /rl after I am done with the AH.
ps. I did get way more info on the term bigot than I did on the topic for which I checked this thread. Quite funny actually, how passionate people can be when defending their pov.
The big things I'm missing from switching from Auctioneer to KCI is the lack of auction data in tooltips (previously mentioned) and the ability to save my auction prices for items I post (supposed to work with fence, but doesn't for me). That's pretty much all I used it for... mainly the saving auction prices as checking the AH data was just a "nice" thing to have.
im giving advanced auctioneer a try right now. from the folks that did auctioneer a complete rewrite.
public test available.
looks and acts great so far.
The big things I'm missing from switching from Auctioneer to KCI is the lack of auction data in tooltips (previously mentioned) and the ability to save my auction prices for items I post (supposed to work with fence, but doesn't for me). That's pretty much all I used it for... mainly the saving auction prices as checking the AH data was just a "nice" thing to have.
Yah, Fence (either standalone or the one included with KC_Items) doesn't have auction-price-saving turned on by default. Likely why you don't see it.
But it does have it--its part of the Fence_AutoFill.lua module. Just type in: /fence af last as well as /fence af toggle to toggle the basic autofill functions on or off. You can also set an auto-buyout amount & auto-searches on your bid items via different commands. Type in: /fence for help on all that is available.
As to "the lack of auction data in tooltips", not clear what you mean. The KC_Items auction data & vendor prices automatically show up in a second tooltip attached to the bottom of the main one for all items. If its a BOP item or is lacking auction data, the secondary tooltip shows the vendor price only.
For what an item is used for, the Mendeleev & TradeskillInfo mods both can provide that in tooltips.
check out the Auctioneer Advanced (still in beta) on the auctioneer homepage's download area. rebuilt from the ground up and i hear it's a lot better on memory.
i'm still sticking with auctioneer on my AH alt only, until AA is in a release state.
I'm glad to see the only dependencies are Stubby and Enhanced Tooltip. I've gotten to where I prefer other mods to much of the auctioneer 'suite'. (And no, not just because they are Ace. Some aren't.)
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No, sorry, "bigotry" is a term especially used to describe racial or religious intolerances. Which this certainly isn't. So end it, dude.
And no, I was not speaking in absolutes. Only would it be so to those who have difficult telling the difference between stated opinions and "pronouncements". Which is apparently the case here. It also shouldn't be necessary to spell out to people that it is a point of view.
"Unable to see the other guy's point of view"? As you've selectively ignored, I've stated many times that if you want all the features of Auctioneer along with the memory/CPU usage that comes along with it, its a choice. If you don't, there are other choices.
Only if you are really aching to get into a fight. Apparently my "...lacking unneeded crap..." joking statement about Auctioneer has some people riled up :P.
As I've mentioned continually here, many people don't need the extra Auctioneer features. But there are many that do. Again, don't try taking this as a "pronouncement" or "fact". The "...many people don't..." thing comes from long (long) experiences testing Auctioneer, KC_Items, AuctionSync, WowEcon, etc. mods, getting feedback from such mod users and its stated as an experienced-based opinion only. Am relating it as my experiences with many people, not what I "think many people should do". It is not some sort of personal judgment call.
Like I said, if you like Auctioneer & its features (& its unfortunate CPU/memory bloat), go nuts. For those who want a far more efficient alternative, KC_Items can often fit the bill." "But of course, everyone has different needs and/or wants." And so on.
Wrong. Have you ever looked inside an Auctioneer saved variable LUA? The vast majority of it is taken up by auction data saved in an inefficient format. Its not the extra features taking up the memory, its the loading of that mass of saved variable auction data.
And no, I've never been arguing that "people don't need" the extra Auctioneer functionality. Yet again, you are misinterpreting (intentionally or not) what I have said as some sort of pronouncement. As above: "As I've mentioned continually here, many people don't need the extra Auctioneer features. But there are many that do. Again, don't try taking this as a "pronouncement" or "fact". The "...many people don't..." thing comes from long (long) experiences testing Auctioneer, KC_Items, AuctionSync, WowEcon, etc. mods, getting feedback from such mod users and its stated as an experienced-based opinion only. Am relating it as my experiences with many people, not what I "think many people should do". It is not some sort of personal judgment call."
Some people may want those extra features and are willing to live with the excessive resource usage that comes along with it. Some may do just fine without them.
Yet again, I'm not "telling people what they do and don't need" or "stating things as facts", geeze. As above: As I've mentioned continually here, many people don't need the extra Auctioneer features. But there are many that do. Again, don't try taking this as a "pronouncement" or "fact". The "...many people don't..." thing comes from long (long) experiences testing Auctioneer, KC_Items, AuctionSync, WowEcon, etc. mods, getting feedback from such mod users and its stated as an experienced-based opinion only. Am relating it as my experiences with many people, not what I "think many people should do". It is not some sort of personal judgment call."
i.e. when someone pm's me with ?[itemname] it pm's them back with the auction information (prices, how many times seen, median etc.)
That is basically the only thing besides actually recording the auctions and being able to see the data every time I scroll over an item (or quickly be able to hold down a button to see auction info on that item).
big?ot?ry /ˈbɪgətri/
1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
2. the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot.
Bigotry has absolutely nothing inherently to do with racial or religious intolerances although of course those are areas where it often crops up. It is a "subject matter agnostic" term and only refers to the intolerance of other opinions, not what those opinions are. Go look in your own dictionary if you still don't believe me - the above definition is from dictionary.com; MW and the OED both have similar definitions.
Several times in your posts you have said such-and-such IS one way or IS another; Auctioneer IS bloated, it's extra features ARE unnecessary. Your statement that "everyone who uses KC_Items regularly thinks the extra features in Auctioneer are unneeded" is an example. You do it again with your most recent post - the saved variable data IS stored in an inefficient format. That seems like talking in absolutes to me.
And that mass of auction data needs to be loaded into to memory all at once in order to enable some of those extra features that you dismiss and KC_Items lacks. There simply isn't any other way to do it - or at least, no-one has figured out a way yet. KC_Items makes the choice not to include those features to avoid the memory overhead; Auctioneer sucks up the hit in memory to provide the extra functionality. There doesn't seem to be any way you can get the one without the other.
Also, please give specifics - as you noted before, these are the Ace2 boards, you can expect a reasonable level of competence from your audience and you won't frighten us away with a discussion of code. Exactly how is the format in which Auctioneer stores data inefficient? Please explain one way in which the data storage format could be improved whilst retaining identical functionality.
You also haven't answered me with regards to your statement that my car analogy was nonsensical. Exactly what was nonsensical about the car analogy?
Fine, I'll take that at face value. I do think we mostly agree - my "bottom line" to the OP in my last post and your summary in your last post read pretty similarly. However I don't seem to be the only one who is getting the wrong impression from your posts - check some of the other responses on this thread.
EDIT: Ok, here's the problem, right here:
Yes, you do indeed say at the end, "everyone has different needs", fair enough. But the assumptions underlying the rest of your statements are very obvious and they belie that point of view. The extra features Auctioneer has over KC_Items are just "features-features-features" and not used or needed to do the job. Auctioneer has "extra features/crap out the wazoo". Your frequent statements that "many/most people" don't need those features is just a simple ad populum. And so on. You make it pretty clear that although you're willing to give lip service to the idea that "everyone has different needs or wants" that in fact you think those people whose opinions differ from your own are misguided, and you want to show them the error of their ways by introducing them to KCI. If that isn't bigotry then I don't know what is.
-k
No, sorry, bigot is not "subject matter agnostic". In fact, Merriam-Webster is where the "especially one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance" comes from. Its a very inflammatory term in many societies and cultures.
I'm completely open to what others think about things (anything really :)). If you refuse to see that because I brought up points you disagree with or oddly touched off nerves in you, that's your problem. So get lost dude; I'm not wasting any more time trying to clarify what I said with someone who wishes to throw around inflammatory insults.
From my previous post, for others: "As above: As I've mentioned continually here, many people don't need the extra Auctioneer features. But there are many that do. Again, don't try taking this as a "pronouncement" or "fact". The "...many people don't..." thing comes from long (long) experiences testing Auctioneer, KC_Items, AuctionSync, WowEcon, etc. mods, getting feedback from such mod users and its stated as an experienced-based opinion only. Am relating it as my experiences with many people, not what I "think many people should do". It is not some sort of personal judgment call."
No, the current KC_Items doesn't have that feature. The earlier Ace1 version didn't either. Don't know of any seperate mods that can provide such functionality to it yet. An auction data information transfer facility might be a nice addition in the future.
Best you can do right now with KC_Items is have someone send you the item link, click it (or mouse-over with tekKompare) then tell them back what the AH data you have on it is.
We'll have to agree to disagree then; I believe "as a racial or ethnic group" is given in MW as an example of what bigotry can refer to; those are not the only possibilities. The term refers to being intolerant of other peoples beliefs or points of view regardless of whether or not those beliefs are religious or race-related in nature.
From wikipedia (hardly canonical, I know, but still):
Again, the term is subject-matter agnostic, as I stated earlier. It has absolutely nothing to do with religion or race in itself, those are simply the most common areas where it crops up. My usage of the term was both appropriate and accurate. This is the last I will say on the subject; if you are unable to accept that you are mistaken even when (relatively) authoritative sources say something different then nothing I can say will persuade you.
I note that you still haven't backed up your opinion, stated as fact, that Auctioneer's data-storage format is inefficient, nor have you explained exactly why my car analogy was "nonsensical". "Obstinately devoted to prejudices even when these views are challenged or proven to be false...."
As to the KC_Items tooltip not showing up in chat: yes, I have heard that happening with one user here. It shows up fine mousing over items in bags or the AH, but not for chat links.
Hasn't ever happened for me personally or anyone else here (chat links work fine), so can't do extensive debugging here. Am trying to work through it with the one person, however. Most likely a conflict with another tooltip mod. Initial steps to find the issue (if you know or have done all this, just ignore ;)):
--be sure you have the latest Ace2 SVN revision of KC_Items (currently r45124 from July 28/07).
--be positive you have seen the item in either an AH scan or heading to the vendor. The KC seperate tooltip won't show up if there is no auction info or sell values to show.
--disable any mod that modifies item tooltips (EnhTooltip, TipBuddy, etc.) either one at a time or in groups (if you have a lot of them).
--After disabling the tooltip mods, then relogging, link a common item in guild/officer/say/etc. chat (mana/health potions, etc.) and try it out. If its still happening after having disabled all your tooltip mods, start disabling other mods in groups/one at a time until you find the culprit.
Good luck.
Why? He simply stated that your recommendation did not meet the OP's request and you went berserk. He called you a bigot, I tend to agree. He challenged you on your coding statement which you apparently made hoping no one would challenge you on it (since you don't seem to know anything about it at all).
I'm in this thread looking for the same thing the OP is. An alternative with the same functionality as Auctioneer. Not reduced functionality. Not your ridiculous viewpoint of more "efficient" functionality. All you did was fill this thread with venom from your first post and you ruined what helpfulness it could have provided.
AuctionFilterPlus shows good and bad deals, ala Auctioneer (actually, better than Auctioneer IMO)...but either it's buggy or else it doesn't play nicely with the other addons I use. It won't remember settings and scrolling the auction window removes the "good", "bad", "average" notations.
AHsearch and AuctionSort, both on the SVN, complement KCI nicely.
You mention median prices several times in your post. I'm unable to find a way to display median prices using KC_Items. Maybe I'm missing an important module. It does show the lowest bid and highest buyout prices for items, but there are many factors that cause those prices to be unreliable. Here are just a few off the top of my head:
If any of these situations ever happen even once for an item, the average recent minimum and maximum prices won't actually give a good picture of the market. As soon as those recent prices make it to the "historical" phase, it will forever be skewed by those outliers.
A median price would dampen the impact of these outlying data, and in general, would give a clearer picture of an item's overall value in the market. I would gladly give up an "average minimum" and "average maximum" for a more reliable median. Knowing the number of samples used to obtain the median (and the min and max too, for that matter) can help you estimate at a glance how reliable those statistics are. Not to mention it provides a decent idea of the item's rarity on the market, if you scan often.
True medians cannot be calculated without saving an entire dataset every time new samples are added, or at the very least, the frequency distribution function describing that dataset. (Frequency distribution functions unfortunately tend to decay over time as they are added together; they begin to lose precision and curves will tend to flatten, eventually distorting the median.)
The verion of KC_Items you linked to seems to still be in beta, as discussed in this thread: http://www.wowace.com/forums/index.php?topic=6961.0. Since you seem to speak very authoritatively about this addon, maybe you're using a different version that calculates and displays medians you could point me to?
Why do you automatically assume that medians are not being used and unreliable "averages" (or whatever) are?
Maybe ask the author (Kaelten) yourself exactly what formulas he uses for displaying prices (or study the LUA files yourself if you are totally fluent in LUA)? I'm not privy to the information.
No, "average recent minimum and maximum prices" or "lowest bid and highest buyout prices" are not what is shown in the tooltip. What the tooltip shows is both historical & recent high & low _ranges_ for both minimum bids & buyouts. AFAIK, yes, based on what I have seen in both the KC_Items.lua & AuctionSpy.lua files, medians are used for those ranges. As are means, weighted means & standard deviations. As well as some method(s) to account for "decay". Also, in the past (Ace 1 version), bell curves were used to limit outliers. That has likely changed & improved in the new Ace2 version ("BellFilters" & "BellMeans"). You can look in those files yourself to get a grasp on what is used.
The tooltip information would be useless if only "averages" were considered. Best to ask Kaelten yourself if you are interested in more detail.
Based on tips from others in the thread, I'll try the Auctioneer on AH Alt, hoping it will help. Or just /rl after I am done with the AH.
ps. I did get way more info on the term bigot than I did on the topic for which I checked this thread. Quite funny actually, how passionate people can be when defending their pov.
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looks and acts great so far.
doc
Yah, Fence (either standalone or the one included with KC_Items) doesn't have auction-price-saving turned on by default. Likely why you don't see it.
But it does have it--its part of the Fence_AutoFill.lua module. Just type in: /fence af last as well as /fence af toggle to toggle the basic autofill functions on or off. You can also set an auto-buyout amount & auto-searches on your bid items via different commands. Type in: /fence for help on all that is available.
As to "the lack of auction data in tooltips", not clear what you mean. The KC_Items auction data & vendor prices automatically show up in a second tooltip attached to the bottom of the main one for all items. If its a BOP item or is lacking auction data, the secondary tooltip shows the vendor price only.
For what an item is used for, the Mendeleev & TradeskillInfo mods both can provide that in tooltips.
i'm still sticking with auctioneer on my AH alt only, until AA is in a release state.
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