You're completely avoiding one very important point: FuBar isn't just some addon. And it doesn't just have "plugins".
We're talking about major apps here like ora, bigwigs, and a whole slew of others, using fubar as a base interface... and they're not going to be rocked. While the idealist says that frameworks don't matter, the reality is that today, we end up loading doubles of a very great deal of the nonframework libraries. A lot of us care about that and don't want it.
Until these major addons have been moved away from fubar, there'll be a fubar2 kept alive. Simple as. Had it been me, I wouldn't have been in such a rush to port fubar to rock. (Then again I wouldn't have sat down and pieced together my very own framework to use for my own mods to begin with so maybe that's an irrelevant opinion.)
Me thinks we found the problem here Mikk,
...Ace3 Alpha branch.. no commits by Ck, this makes one think that something fishy is going on here.
...On IRC there feels to be a standing rivalry between those working on Ace3 and Ck,
Seems to be that choice finaly came back and bit some of you in the ass eh?
i guess there should have been more considerations made before deciding that a "linch-pin" author should be written off.
in summary, old plugins *should* be compatible with the new FuBar, new plugins shouldn't have to be compatible with the old FuBar.
ck wouldn't break other addons' plugins like oRA2, etc.
Games to a computer is like plugins to fubar. I can play 15 year old games on this computer. I *should* be able to. But I shouldn't expect games made for this computer to work on a computer made 15 years ago.
I've said before - I know the original intent was because of stability and libraries. I get that. I am not disputing that. I am more of a laid back person who tries to look at the big picture. I see both sides - I've been remaining neutral.
Yes, FuBarAce had a bad start with the branding (actually, it may have been easiest to just put it on wowinterface or something with an .svn folder in it or something so you didn't even need to name it differently with a .bat folder...). Yes, people are blowing this a bit out of proportion.
Now I'm stepping in as the mom that I so often act like (my little brothers always hated having two moms). Curney and Orion, pull it back a tad - try to see their side. Mikk and others: if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all. Don't make me sit all of you in corners (I don't think I can find a room with that many corners). People need to play nicely around here - and don't make me say it again.
[me=moonwitch]shivers in her boots (ok, slippers)[/me]
Yes mom :P
Seriously, the entire debate and constant going back and forth with the same base-content but the reiterated is damaging the community more than the actual act of forking, making different frameworks.
Can there not be an agreement to disagree and just let it go? Focus on the important thing, not on the politics behind it. While people may or may not have issues with the ethical side of these things, you'll always have that. We are human, humans have own minds, own ideas - thus collisions in those aspects of our nature will occur. It's how world wars came to existence too. (Not saying this is a world war or wanting to pull that into the discussion, just put that in to make a point.)
So now we have Fubar3 with Rock, Fubar2 with Ace, let them both grow or not grow, whatever. The reason both were created was because authors of said add-ons had different views. Users have different views. It is the way it is, there's no point in arguing about who's right who's wrong. Such a debate will go on forever, each side feels they are in the right, so they will continue to try and convince the opposing side of their wrong.
Anyone wanting an e-cookie? (To add in a lighter note in this thread)
Fubar (v3.0) is shown on WAU as Fubar
Fubar2 (v2.0) is shown on WAU as Fubar2
Wich means that the ones that forked Fubar2 are actually trying to make the average user believe that their version is a successor to Fubar. Wich in my view is plain evil, since it is actually an attempt to hold on to the past.
Or at the very least: It is certainly NOT the successor to Fubar
So you have taken a poorly chosen name and changed it into a pure LIE.
That's wrong simply because FuBar2 is the correct version numbering. If anything else, you should bark at ckk for naming his FuBar-3.0 just FuBar and as such making all believe there's no difference between FuBar-1.0, FuBar-2.0, FuBar-3.0.
None of the forkers want any user to change to their version, they want it for themselves and those that are interested.
What would you suggest for a name then?
This whole mess was caused by ckk in the first place when he didn't use common release practice and did not up the major version numbers of his (re)released addons. It's just bad habit, period. I know he can do it (see libs) but he deliberately didn't.
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Straight from Marriam-Webster:
linchpin
One entry found for linchpin.
Main Entry: linch?pin
Variant(s): also lynch?pin /'linch-"pin/
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English lynspin, from lyns linchpin (from Old English lynis) + pin; akin to Middle High German luns linchpin
1 : a locking pin inserted crosswise (as through the end of an axle or shaft)
2 : one that serves to hold together parts or elements that exist or function as a unit <the linchpin in the defense's case>
-----
By the way, there's an edit function; please use it.
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Quote from OrionShock »
Me thinks we found the problem here Mikk,
...Ace3 Alpha branch.. no commits by Ck, this makes one think that something fishy is going on here.
It's fishy that the one you glorify doesn't take part in developing a framework which is called Ace3? Yeah, makes sense. :roll:
...On IRC there feels to be a standing rivalry between those working on Ace3 and Ck,
Which both sides take responsibility for, not just the one you want to see.
Seems to be that choice finaly came back and bit some of you in the ass eh?
I think someone doesn't grasp the meaning of "choice".
i guess there should have been more considerations made before deciding that a "linch-pin" author should be written off.
If no compromise can be reached, then ways have to part which is what happened. Simple as that. You could just turn that around and say "there should have been more considerations before writing off all other developers taking part in Ace3". See, that doesn't make sense.
ckk decided to go it's own way and that's fine. Who wants to follow him, be my guest, who doesn't, be my guest, too. You obviously follow ckk and that's totally fine but please stop barking at those that don't want to regardless of the reasons.
This whole mess was caused by ckk in the first place when he didn't use common release practice and upped the major version numbers of his (re)released addons. It's just bad habit, period. I know he can do it (see libs) but he deliberately didn't.
Srosh... the problem goes deeper than that, and has little to do with ck.... so lets not lay that problem on his head.
your ignorance =/= their problem... i certainly didn't blithely download addons off of file site with out looking into the forums or reading up on it.
Neither do I. But you can't seriously try to tell me that putting a 2 behind an addon does not imply that it's the succesor to the addon name without the 2
Let me put it simple: When you went to see Terminator 2 in the theatre.. Did you expect to see a movie made after Terminator? With some better special effects and a bigger budget?
Don't play naive pls...
Is my thinken really that off-base?
Quote from OrionShock »
(to be rude and and dismissive)
why ask ... just Google it.. (think for one self > asking others to think for you)
I was interested in how you meant it, my thinking is fine...
Is it really common place to create a completely new folder for every major revision of an addon?
A quick look at files.wowace.com seems to indicated that it's not a very common practice at all.
Some addons that went from Ace1 to Ace2 created a new AddonName2 folder but most of the major addons did not. BigWigs? Went from Ace1 to Ace2 but didn't change the folder name. SCT? Went from a non-Ace addon to an Ace addon but didn't change the folder name.
Most of the addons from repository sites like wowinterface.com also go through big revisions but do not change their folder names. Look at Clique, PerfectRaid, Bagnon, Ludwig, etc. These are major addons that have always used the same folder and I would say rightly so.
This could be fixed by rebranding the fork of FuBar as something else. Instead of FuBar, call it FuOld or something. Then it won't be branded as Ace and it won't mislead users to think it's a new version of their beloved FuBar addon. And the people who say they did this only for themselves and people who wanted it can proceed without interfering with the development of major addons anymore.
I think it should have stayed named as it was. The only difference is the framework it's using, hence, it's name should reflect that difference. Versions numbers do no good because they are not the same addon. People are choosing to use this addon solely for the fact that it is built on Ace and not Rock, so the fanboism and such argument is entirely moot, the decision is already made by someone making the educated choice to download this addon over the Rock version. Instead, the name, description and everything else should do it's best to allow that user to be educated, not confused.
Locking this thread, I have already renamed carto and fubar, this will sufficiently indicate the old version and hopefully make up for the lack of original version bumpage, nothing more constructive can come from this thread.
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Curse PremiumMe thinks we found the problem here Mikk,
...Ace3 Alpha branch.. no commits by Ck, this makes one think that something fishy is going on here.
...On IRC there feels to be a standing rivalry between those working on Ace3 and Ck,
Seems to be that choice finaly came back and bit some of you in the ass eh?
i guess there should have been more considerations made before deciding that a "linch-pin" author should be written off.
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Curse Premiumck wouldn't break other addons' plugins like oRA2, etc.
Games to a computer is like plugins to fubar. I can play 15 year old games on this computer. I *should* be able to. But I shouldn't expect games made for this computer to work on a computer made 15 years ago.
I've said before - I know the original intent was because of stability and libraries. I get that. I am not disputing that. I am more of a laid back person who tries to look at the big picture. I see both sides - I've been remaining neutral.
Yes, FuBarAce had a bad start with the branding (actually, it may have been easiest to just put it on wowinterface or something with an .svn folder in it or something so you didn't even need to name it differently with a .bat folder...). Yes, people are blowing this a bit out of proportion.
Now I'm stepping in as the mom that I so often act like (my little brothers always hated having two moms). Curney and Orion, pull it back a tad - try to see their side. Mikk and others: if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all. Don't make me sit all of you in corners (I don't think I can find a room with that many corners). People need to play nicely around here - and don't make me say it again.
Yes mom :P
Seriously, the entire debate and constant going back and forth with the same base-content but the reiterated is damaging the community more than the actual act of forking, making different frameworks.
Can there not be an agreement to disagree and just let it go? Focus on the important thing, not on the politics behind it. While people may or may not have issues with the ethical side of these things, you'll always have that. We are human, humans have own minds, own ideas - thus collisions in those aspects of our nature will occur. It's how world wars came to existence too. (Not saying this is a world war or wanting to pull that into the discussion, just put that in to make a point.)
So now we have Fubar3 with Rock, Fubar2 with Ace, let them both grow or not grow, whatever. The reason both were created was because authors of said add-ons had different views. Users have different views. It is the way it is, there's no point in arguing about who's right who's wrong. Such a debate will go on forever, each side feels they are in the right, so they will continue to try and convince the opposing side of their wrong.
Anyone wanting an e-cookie? (To add in a lighter note in this thread)
Fubar2 (v2.0) is shown on WAU as Fubar2
Wich means that the ones that forked Fubar2 are actually trying to make the average user believe that their version is a successor to Fubar. Wich in my view is plain evil, since it is actually an attempt to hold on to the past.
Or at the very least: It is certainly NOT the successor to Fubar
So you have taken a poorly chosen name and changed it into a pure LIE.
GJ on that :(
A question: How do you justify that?
What doe Linch-pin mean? (I seriously don't know)
None of the forkers want any user to change to their version, they want it for themselves and those that are interested.
What would you suggest for a name then?
This whole mess was caused by ckk in the first place when he didn't use common release practice and did not up the major version numbers of his (re)released addons. It's just bad habit, period. I know he can do it (see libs) but he deliberately didn't.
-----
Straight from Marriam-Webster:
linchpin
One entry found for linchpin.
Main Entry: linch?pin
Variant(s): also lynch?pin /'linch-"pin/
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English lynspin, from lyns linchpin (from Old English lynis) + pin; akin to Middle High German luns linchpin
1 : a locking pin inserted crosswise (as through the end of an axle or shaft)
2 : one that serves to hold together parts or elements that exist or function as a unit <the linchpin in the defense's case>
-----
By the way, there's an edit function; please use it.
-----
It's fishy that the one you glorify doesn't take part in developing a framework which is called Ace3? Yeah, makes sense. :roll:
Which both sides take responsibility for, not just the one you want to see.
I think someone doesn't grasp the meaning of "choice".
If no compromise can be reached, then ways have to part which is what happened. Simple as that. You could just turn that around and say "there should have been more considerations before writing off all other developers taking part in Ace3". See, that doesn't make sense.
ckk decided to go it's own way and that's fine. Who wants to follow him, be my guest, who doesn't, be my guest, too. You obviously follow ckk and that's totally fine but please stop barking at those that don't want to regardless of the reasons.
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Curse Premiumyour ignorance =/= their problem... i certainly didn't blithely download addons off of file site with out looking into the forums or reading up on it.
(to be rude and and dismissive)
why ask ... just Google it.. (think for one self > asking others to think for you)
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Curse PremiumSrosh... the problem goes deeper than that, and has little to do with ck.... so lets not lay that problem on his head.
Even without the Ace-fork I was and am thinking that there should've been a major number change. Nothing else.
(However, seeing that it probably won't change, I suggest putting a "3.0" into the description field of FuBar(Rock).)
Neither do I. But you can't seriously try to tell me that putting a 2 behind an addon does not imply that it's the succesor to the addon name without the 2
Let me put it simple: When you went to see Terminator 2 in the theatre.. Did you expect to see a movie made after Terminator? With some better special effects and a bigger budget?
Don't play naive pls...
Is my thinken really that off-base?
I was interested in how you meant it, my thinking is fine...
Oops I did it again...
I react to different things in different posts... Learn to live with it.
A quick look at files.wowace.com seems to indicated that it's not a very common practice at all.
Some addons that went from Ace1 to Ace2 created a new AddonName2 folder but most of the major addons did not. BigWigs? Went from Ace1 to Ace2 but didn't change the folder name. SCT? Went from a non-Ace addon to an Ace addon but didn't change the folder name.
Most of the addons from repository sites like wowinterface.com also go through big revisions but do not change their folder names. Look at Clique, PerfectRaid, Bagnon, Ludwig, etc. These are major addons that have always used the same folder and I would say rightly so.
This could be fixed by rebranding the fork of FuBar as something else. Instead of FuBar, call it FuOld or something. Then it won't be branded as Ace and it won't mislead users to think it's a new version of their beloved FuBar addon. And the people who say they did this only for themselves and people who wanted it can proceed without interfering with the development of major addons anymore.
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