The author of nUI is dropping his project too. And it is, of course, up to Blizzard how they want to enforce this. Taking nUI's example, where on update it has (once) a little popup that says "thanks for using, please donate!" that's easily closed and doesn't come up again, Blizzard could just not bother to ban its use. They CAN choose to ignore addons; doing what they did just gives them a solid legal base to move from when/if they feel the need to go after an addon (such as Carbonite).
.. well their ToS / EULA does say that their failure to enforce dosn't mean that it's ok... so it could mean that blizzard wants to walk that fine line of Covering their ass, but not giving a dam...
The author of nUI is dropping his project too. And it is, of course, up to Blizzard how they want to enforce this. Taking nUI's example, where on update it has (once) a little popup that says "thanks for using, please donate!" that's easily closed and doesn't come up again, Blizzard could just not bother to ban its use. They CAN choose to ignore addons; doing what they did just gives them a solid legal base to move from when/if they feel the need to go after an addon (such as Carbonite).
People just love to be emo and over-react to things, before they even know the full extent of a given 'problem'.
I think authors of little niche mods that are supported by actual 'fans' need to calm down their ovaries, do nothing, and wait and see.
It really annoys me to see one of the few areas of the WoW community explode into drama because of an initial release. Fuck knows, this could be their 'beta' terms so to speak. >.O
Or they may just turn a blind eye to things that really aren't hurting anyone. The whole damn things was concocted with obvious goals in mind, the stuff outside of that scope probably won't even be noticed, unless some one feels like being a particular ass hole at some point.
People just love to be emo and over-react to things, before they even know the full extent of a given 'problem'.
I think authors of little niche mods that are supported by actual 'fans' need to calm down their ovaries, do nothing, and wait and see.
It really annoys me to see one of the few areas of the WoW community explode into drama because of an initial release. Fuck knows, this could be their 'beta' terms so to speak. >.O
Or they may just turn a blind eye to things that really aren't hurting anyone. The whole damn things was concocted with obvious goals in mind, the stuff outside of that scope probably won't even be noticed, unless some one feels like being a particular ass hole at some point.
If Blizzard now says that [a]dd-ons must be free of charge and [a]dd-ons may not solicit donations and their EULA reads "You agree that you will not, under any circumstances: [...] use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, mods or any other unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the World of Warcraft experience;", that means that if my addon contains donation links which other users use, I am liable to be sued by Blizzard for tortious interference with contract.
Now it is now quite firmly agreed by most people that the UI Add-On Development Policy is not a legal document, it is merely a set of guidelines that Blizzard will adhere and follow, it has no agreement or contract attached to it. That is to say, the Policy does not remove my right to sell my addon code. I can sell it - but also risk being sued if I choose to do so. If such an event happens, it will have rippling effects across the entire software industry as a precedent case that far exceeds WoW.
We're talking about stuff like Gimp addons, Firefox plugins, Photoshop, Winamp, etc.
It is of key to note that any person can write code in the Lua language that can be run in WoW, that isn't necessarily an addon (but can be an addon) such as this: print("Hello World!"). It is also of key to note that any person can ALSO write addons for WoW, and yet does not agree with the EULA/ToS, in fact such a person does not even need to own a copy of WoW nor have a wow subscription and as such, agree to none of Blizzard's terms, but yet can be liable to be sued if damages can be proven as shown by the Glider case.
To put the whole issue down succinctly, here's a quote from post #722:
Let's not worry about the law here. Let's discuss moral and principles. You have admitted that an AddOn does not need World of Warcraft to be created or debugged. The point that it requires World of Warcraft is pointless: It can still be created independently of Blizzard. Why, then, should Blizzard be able to tell me how I can distribute it? My AddOn does not use anything that Blizzard owns copyrights to. My AddOn does not license any software or works from Blizzard.
Do you really think that Blizzard should be able to control what I do with it then?
It is of key to note that any person can write code in the Lua language that can be run in WoW, that isn't necessarily an addon. It is also of key to note that any person can ALSO write addons for WoW, and yet does not agree with the EULA/ToS, in fact such a person does not even need to own a copy of WoW nor have a wow subscription and as such, agree to none of Blizzard's terms, but yet can be liable to be sued if damages can be proven as shown by the Glider case.
Very true, but Blizzard does have the final say for whether they will allow addons to run in their program. They'll have a very shakey start trying to go after for sale addons, but an airtight one for banning the use of on their servers.
Xinhuan there is a slight flaw in your logic that makes things even worse... All addons are "unauthorized third-party software", unless it is signed by blizzard.
Xinhuan there is a slight flaw in your logic that makes things even worse... All addons are "unauthorized third-party software", unless it is signed by blizzard.
That's not true. Addons are implicitly allowed third-party software by virtue of the fact that Blizzard allows UI modifications via writing addons using the WoW API.
They can however unauthorize any such addon that they deem fit, such as addons that attempt to do cross-faction communication; this is even stated and added to the Terms of Use a few years ago. That is to say, any addon that attempted to cross-faction communicate is already liable to be sued for tortious interference with contract.
I see the whole issue as being a lot like infomercials on cable TV. People who watch cable TV pay a recurring subscription fee to the cable provider, just as people who play WoW pay a recurring subscription fee to Blizzard. Someone who wants to air an infomercial on cable TV that asks viewers to pay money can't just do it for free and make a profit piggybacking on the cable provider's service, infrastructure, and subscriber base; they have to pay the cable company. Addons that ask users to pay money are the same -- Blizzard doesn't want addon author making money off Blizzard's service, Blizzard's infrastructure, and Blizzard's subscriber base. Infomercial producers are, however, free to put up a website advertising their product and asking for money, just as addon authors are free to ask for money on their addon's download page.
Personally, I've never asked for donations from users of my addons, and view addons that actively solicit donations (like QuestHelper) as extremely rude. I saw the solicitation when I first downloaded the addon. I see it every time I download an update. If I haven't already donated -- whether it's because I don't want to, or because I can't afford to -- then it's not very likely that I'm going to change my mind if the addon pops up an annoying dialog box every time I login, or once a week, or whatever, telling me that if I like the addon and want to support it I should donate. It really gives the impression that the author is trying to make me feel guilty for not giving him money.
I don't really have a problem with addons that just include a "How to donate" entry at the end of an in-game FAQ, but it's much easier and more legally sound for Blizzard to just say "no donation stuff in-game, period" than it is for them to try to draw lines on what kind of solicitation is okay and what's not.
Phanx the hole i see in your analogy is that infomercials on cable tv are paid for or the time slot is sold by the provider or the company doing the infomercial, the biz model is designed around that interaction and intent. Addons are not sold or paid for by blizzard with the intent to make money in game. However the rest of the idea holds.
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On the other hand while i might agree with phanx's example, the fact that they did an asshole thing by being so ugly blunt with no kid gloves about the whole thing is really unsettling.
Guys... not trying to be a jerk, but... stop trying to be lawyers. Programmers always think we can just "logic" our way through any issue of law, and we always fail miserably. :-)
If you're in a position where you need to have the rules interpreted because the answer affects your work, then hire an actual lawyer.
On a serious note, we are programers, we do logic all the time. Law on the same token has to have logic to it. The odd thing about logic is that it is 90% dependant on information and known facts. That's why we reason and use logic in these cases.. It has to make sense some how.
Just to add fule to the fire that blizzard created, if your an author i'd recommend sending an email to the point that blizzard provided in their policy guide asking for clarification on the matter. Im sure if the community can make a big enough stink about it someone at blizzard will cave... atleast that's how the rogues do it for game changes :)
I'm not a lawyer. I don't try to be one. No, law doesn't "have" to be based on logic. It's based on historical precedent combined with case judgments. It can be complete fucking gibberish, and often is. Ask an actual lawyer and they will tell you the same thing. That's why they get the training and salaries that they do; if it were as easy as some of this thread's posters seem to think, anybody could do it.
An inordinately large part of my career has been spent listening to clients who were confused about interpreting the GPL, software copyrights, IP claims, and the like. We software people suck at trying to predict legal outcomes. Don't fool yourself into thinking that it "has" to work the same as what we think of as normal.
My ranting isn't going to stop this thread from going on for another dozen pages with armchair judges' opinions, I just get amazed at seeing intelligent software people make the same mistake over and over and over...
Phanx the hole i see in your analogy is that infomercials on cable tv are paid for or the time slot is sold by the provider or the company doing the infomercial, the biz model is designed around that interaction and intent. Addons are not sold or paid for by blizzard with the intent to make money in game. However the rest of the idea holds.
Right, but the general concept is the same -- a third party profiting from a provider's infrastructure, service, and subscriber base. Obviously cable providers are interested in adding to their profit by selling ad slots, while Blizzard is not interested in selling in-game ad rights.
On the other hand while i might agree with phanx's example, the fact that they did an asshole thing by being so ugly blunt with no kid gloves about the whole thing is really unsettling.
What part of it was blunt? The policy is very clearly worded, and clearly intended to reflect the fact that WoW is a game. It should be fun. Writing addons for a game should be something you do because you enjoy because it makes the game more enjoyable for yourself or others. If you're at the point where you feel like writing addons is a chore, or a job, maybe you should stop doing it, or cut back on how much time you spend doing it. If you're at the point where you feel like you're entitled to be paid for the time you spend writing code, get a job writing code. If you're using donations to pay for your WoW subscription on the grounds that you only use WoW to keep your addons going, that's probably also a good sign that you should quit. If you're using donations to help you buy food or pay your rent, you probably shouldn't be playing WoW or writing addons at all right now.
Making people pay to use an addon that you've written in your spare time for a hobby game is not fun for anyone except you. Guilt-tripping people with popups in-game telling them that if they support your addon they'll give you money isn't fun. Being at the point where you won't continue developing or supporting your addon because you can't ask for money in-game anymore isn't fun.
Whilst only a lowly user, I do agree with Phanx. I spend countless hours contributing to a much smaller userbase (read guild) and expect no payment from it. The enjoyment lies in picking up new skills (website/organisational skills and the like) and just generally being part of a community of like minded individuals.
My advice, put your donation buttons up on websites, spend the resulting cash exclusively on beer and get on with enjoying the game and coding.
that they where so clear and percise with no Q&A with the authors is what's unsettling, that's what i mean phanx.
I do enjoy coding addons, and i do it in my spare time. Heck i don't even have a donate link anywhere in my addons. I just think they could have handled it better that's all.
that they where so clear and percise with no Q&A with the authors is what's unsettling, that's what i mean phanx.
I do enjoy coding addons, and i do it in my spare time. Heck i don't even have a donate link anywhere in my addons. I just think they could have handled it better that's all.
And there's still the chance that it may get handled better. Which is pretty much what I was trying to get at before. >.>
The policy is very clearly worded, and clearly intended to reflect the fact that WoW is a game. It should be fun. Writing addons for a game should be something you do because you enjoy because it makes the game more enjoyable for yourself or others. If you're at the point where you feel like writing addons is a chore, or a job, maybe you should stop doing it, or cut back on how much time you spend doing it. If you're at the point where you feel like you're entitled to be paid for the time you spend writing code, get a job writing code. If you're using donations to pay for your WoW subscription on the grounds that you only use WoW to keep your addons going, that's probably also a good sign that you should quit. If you're using donations to help you buy food or pay your rent, you probably shouldn't be playing WoW or writing addons at all right now.
Making people pay to use an addon that you've written in your spare time for a hobby game is not fun for anyone except you. Guilt-tripping people with popups in-game telling them that if they support your addon they'll give you money isn't fun. Being at the point where you won't continue developing or supporting your addon because you can't ask for money in-game anymore isn't fun.
What part of it was blunt? The policy is very clearly worded, and clearly intended to reflect the fact that WoW is a game. It should be fun. Writing addons for a game should be something you do because you enjoy because it makes the game more enjoyable for yourself or others. If you're at the point where you feel like writing addons is a chore, or a job, maybe you should stop doing it, or cut back on how much time you spend doing it. If you're at the point where you feel like you're entitled to be paid for the time you spend writing code, get a job writing code. If you're using donations to pay for your WoW subscription on the grounds that you only use WoW to keep your addons going, that's probably also a good sign that you should quit. If you're using donations to help you buy food or pay your rent, you probably shouldn't be playing WoW or writing addons at all right now.
Making people pay to use an addon that you've written in your spare time for a hobby game is not fun for anyone except you. Guilt-tripping people with popups in-game telling them that if they support your addon they'll give you money isn't fun. Being at the point where you won't continue developing or supporting your addon because you can't ask for money in-game anymore isn't fun.
While this is probably morally correct, it does not negate the fact that it is well within the rights of an author to ask for a subscription or donation. It is copyrighted work after all and he has every right to want to control the distribution method. Whether this is 'fun', 'rude' or morally correct is ultimately immaterial, from a legal perspective. People that do not agree with an authors preferred distribution method, always have a choice not to continue using said addon, no one is really making anyone do anything, considering that in the vast majority of cases, there are always alternatives to almost all addons out there. Maybe not the best alternatives but they do exist. Then on the other hand, it is well within the rights of Blizzard to disallow the addons that will not respect the policy. Attaching is to the EULA/ToS though might prove more difficult, since Blizzard does not own addon code. I'm not sure at all they would be able to enforce it.
While this is probably morally correct, it does not negate the fact that it is well within the rights of an author to ask for a subscription or donation.
Of course, but it is also well within Blizzard's rights to prohibit certain activities from being carried out through their service. All morals and ethics aside, an addon author asking users to send him money with an in-game message is almost no different from a gold seller asking players to send him money. Both are one party asking another party to give out-of-game money for an in-game product. Blizzard has long made it clear that they don't approve of in-game products or services being traded for out-of-game money.
This new policy is just a logical extension of that; they were willing to overlook things like QuestHelper's repeating "give me money if you like this addon" prompts and Xinhuan's unobtrusive donation info FAQ entries, but with the growing popularity of Carbonite, Blizzard needed to step in and outline a clear policy specifically addressing money-for-addons. Nobody forces authors to write addons; if someone isn't willing to write an addon without getting paid for it, they don't have to write it.
that they where so clear and percise with no Q&A with the authors is what's unsettling, that's what i mean phanx.
Eh, what kind of Q&A should they have done? The policy is very specific, and clearly outlines Blizzard's intentions. They allow addons, but it's their game. If they don't want something done in their game, it's their right to block it. They don't need to sit down with addon authors and make sure it's okay to block in-game requests for out-of-game money before they do it, any more than they need to sit down with with mages and make sure it's okay to adjust the damage coefficient of Fireball before they do it.
If they don't want something done in their game, it's their right to block it. They don't need to sit down with addon authors and make sure it's okay to block in-game requests for out-of-game money before they do it, any more than they need to sit down with with mages and make sure it's okay to adjust the damage coefficient of Fireball before they do it.
That's fine, they can block the addons in WoW. Perfectly legal.
What isn't fine (by principles/ethics/morals) is telling us that we can't sell the addons. If we do, we risk getting sued for tortious interference with contract. Selling addons is one of our author rights by copyright law, and Blizzard seeks for this not to happen by threatening legal action on us if this happens. Note that Blizzard has never removed my right to sell addons. I can sell addons and it will break no law or contract. But Blizzard can also sue in response if they can prove that it causes them damages. Its not right in principle and has far reaching consequences in the entire software industry.
This is why the Glider case hasn't been well received.
While no author right is legally removed with regards to their addon and code, in essence and practicality, the new UI policy has that overall effect.
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Curse PremiumPeople just love to be emo and over-react to things, before they even know the full extent of a given 'problem'.
I think authors of little niche mods that are supported by actual 'fans' need to calm down their ovaries, do nothing, and wait and see.
It really annoys me to see one of the few areas of the WoW community explode into drama because of an initial release. Fuck knows, this could be their 'beta' terms so to speak. >.O
Or they may just turn a blind eye to things that really aren't hurting anyone. The whole damn things was concocted with obvious goals in mind, the stuff outside of that scope probably won't even be noticed, unless some one feels like being a particular ass hole at some point.
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Curse PremiumThat's because you are not seeing the whole picture. Blizzard won the Glider lawsuit by arguing for tortious interference with contract. See document #95 of
http://news.justia.com/cases/featured/arizona/azdce/2:2006cv02555/322017/
If Blizzard now says that [a]dd-ons must be free of charge and [a]dd-ons may not solicit donations and their EULA reads "You agree that you will not, under any circumstances: [...] use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, mods or any other unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the World of Warcraft experience;", that means that if my addon contains donation links which other users use, I am liable to be sued by Blizzard for tortious interference with contract.
Now it is now quite firmly agreed by most people that the UI Add-On Development Policy is not a legal document, it is merely a set of guidelines that Blizzard will adhere and follow, it has no agreement or contract attached to it. That is to say, the Policy does not remove my right to sell my addon code. I can sell it - but also risk being sued if I choose to do so. If such an event happens, it will have rippling effects across the entire software industry as a precedent case that far exceeds WoW.
We're talking about stuff like Gimp addons, Firefox plugins, Photoshop, Winamp, etc.
It is of key to note that any person can write code in the Lua language that can be run in WoW, that isn't necessarily an addon (but can be an addon) such as this: print("Hello World!"). It is also of key to note that any person can ALSO write addons for WoW, and yet does not agree with the EULA/ToS, in fact such a person does not even need to own a copy of WoW nor have a wow subscription and as such, agree to none of Blizzard's terms, but yet can be liable to be sued if damages can be proven as shown by the Glider case.
To put the whole issue down succinctly, here's a quote from post #722:
Do you get the whole picture now?
Very true, but Blizzard does have the final say for whether they will allow addons to run in their program. They'll have a very shakey start trying to go after for sale addons, but an airtight one for banning the use of on their servers.
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Curse PremiumThat's not true. Addons are implicitly allowed third-party software by virtue of the fact that Blizzard allows UI modifications via writing addons using the WoW API.
They can however unauthorize any such addon that they deem fit, such as addons that attempt to do cross-faction communication; this is even stated and added to the Terms of Use a few years ago. That is to say, any addon that attempted to cross-faction communicate is already liable to be sued for tortious interference with contract.
Personally, I've never asked for donations from users of my addons, and view addons that actively solicit donations (like QuestHelper) as extremely rude. I saw the solicitation when I first downloaded the addon. I see it every time I download an update. If I haven't already donated -- whether it's because I don't want to, or because I can't afford to -- then it's not very likely that I'm going to change my mind if the addon pops up an annoying dialog box every time I login, or once a week, or whatever, telling me that if I like the addon and want to support it I should donate. It really gives the impression that the author is trying to make me feel guilty for not giving him money.
I don't really have a problem with addons that just include a "How to donate" entry at the end of an in-game FAQ, but it's much easier and more legally sound for Blizzard to just say "no donation stuff in-game, period" than it is for them to try to draw lines on what kind of solicitation is okay and what's not.
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Curse Premium-----
On the other hand while i might agree with phanx's example, the fact that they did an asshole thing by being so ugly blunt with no kid gloves about the whole thing is really unsettling.
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Curse PremiumIf you're in a position where you need to have the rules interpreted because the answer affects your work, then hire an actual lawyer.
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Curse PremiumOn a serious note, we are programers, we do logic all the time. Law on the same token has to have logic to it. The odd thing about logic is that it is 90% dependant on information and known facts. That's why we reason and use logic in these cases.. It has to make sense some how.
Just to add fule to the fire that blizzard created, if your an author i'd recommend sending an email to the point that blizzard provided in their policy guide asking for clarification on the matter. Im sure if the community can make a big enough stink about it someone at blizzard will cave... atleast that's how the rogues do it for game changes :)
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Curse PremiumAn inordinately large part of my career has been spent listening to clients who were confused about interpreting the GPL, software copyrights, IP claims, and the like. We software people suck at trying to predict legal outcomes. Don't fool yourself into thinking that it "has" to work the same as what we think of as normal.
My ranting isn't going to stop this thread from going on for another dozen pages with armchair judges' opinions, I just get amazed at seeing intelligent software people make the same mistake over and over and over...
Right, but the general concept is the same -- a third party profiting from a provider's infrastructure, service, and subscriber base. Obviously cable providers are interested in adding to their profit by selling ad slots, while Blizzard is not interested in selling in-game ad rights.
What part of it was blunt? The policy is very clearly worded, and clearly intended to reflect the fact that WoW is a game. It should be fun. Writing addons for a game should be something you do because you enjoy because it makes the game more enjoyable for yourself or others. If you're at the point where you feel like writing addons is a chore, or a job, maybe you should stop doing it, or cut back on how much time you spend doing it. If you're at the point where you feel like you're entitled to be paid for the time you spend writing code, get a job writing code. If you're using donations to pay for your WoW subscription on the grounds that you only use WoW to keep your addons going, that's probably also a good sign that you should quit. If you're using donations to help you buy food or pay your rent, you probably shouldn't be playing WoW or writing addons at all right now.
Making people pay to use an addon that you've written in your spare time for a hobby game is not fun for anyone except you. Guilt-tripping people with popups in-game telling them that if they support your addon they'll give you money isn't fun. Being at the point where you won't continue developing or supporting your addon because you can't ask for money in-game anymore isn't fun.
My advice, put your donation buttons up on websites, spend the resulting cash exclusively on beer and get on with enjoying the game and coding.
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Curse PremiumI do enjoy coding addons, and i do it in my spare time. Heck i don't even have a donate link anywhere in my addons. I just think they could have handled it better that's all.
And there's still the chance that it may get handled better. Which is pretty much what I was trying to get at before. >.>
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Curse PremiumMy sentiments exactly.
While this is probably morally correct, it does not negate the fact that it is well within the rights of an author to ask for a subscription or donation. It is copyrighted work after all and he has every right to want to control the distribution method. Whether this is 'fun', 'rude' or morally correct is ultimately immaterial, from a legal perspective. People that do not agree with an authors preferred distribution method, always have a choice not to continue using said addon, no one is really making anyone do anything, considering that in the vast majority of cases, there are always alternatives to almost all addons out there. Maybe not the best alternatives but they do exist. Then on the other hand, it is well within the rights of Blizzard to disallow the addons that will not respect the policy. Attaching is to the EULA/ToS though might prove more difficult, since Blizzard does not own addon code. I'm not sure at all they would be able to enforce it.
Of course, but it is also well within Blizzard's rights to prohibit certain activities from being carried out through their service. All morals and ethics aside, an addon author asking users to send him money with an in-game message is almost no different from a gold seller asking players to send him money. Both are one party asking another party to give out-of-game money for an in-game product. Blizzard has long made it clear that they don't approve of in-game products or services being traded for out-of-game money.
This new policy is just a logical extension of that; they were willing to overlook things like QuestHelper's repeating "give me money if you like this addon" prompts and Xinhuan's unobtrusive donation info FAQ entries, but with the growing popularity of Carbonite, Blizzard needed to step in and outline a clear policy specifically addressing money-for-addons. Nobody forces authors to write addons; if someone isn't willing to write an addon without getting paid for it, they don't have to write it.
Eh, what kind of Q&A should they have done? The policy is very specific, and clearly outlines Blizzard's intentions. They allow addons, but it's their game. If they don't want something done in their game, it's their right to block it. They don't need to sit down with addon authors and make sure it's okay to block in-game requests for out-of-game money before they do it, any more than they need to sit down with with mages and make sure it's okay to adjust the damage coefficient of Fireball before they do it.
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Curse PremiumThat's fine, they can block the addons in WoW. Perfectly legal.
What isn't fine (by principles/ethics/morals) is telling us that we can't sell the addons. If we do, we risk getting sued for tortious interference with contract. Selling addons is one of our author rights by copyright law, and Blizzard seeks for this not to happen by threatening legal action on us if this happens. Note that Blizzard has never removed my right to sell addons. I can sell addons and it will break no law or contract. But Blizzard can also sue in response if they can prove that it causes them damages. Its not right in principle and has far reaching consequences in the entire software industry.
This is why the Glider case hasn't been well received.
While no author right is legally removed with regards to their addon and code, in essence and practicality, the new UI policy has that overall effect.