I don't even go to most sections of these forums anymore due to the large number of posts that are either questions that have been answered countless times already or questions that imho don't belong here at all (like questions about addons that are not hosted on WowAce and don't use any libraries hosted on WowAce, we aren't the UI & Macros WoW forums and when I start seeing 'name this addon' threads I will be leaving).
I see your point. Here is how I feel about this through: People come here with a blank slate. Even if you are search engine savvy you may not find the answer because semantic searching is hard.
I personally do not mind answering the same question multiple times. This is the nature of interacting with ever new people. People who I meet the first time keep asking me "What's your name?". Rather than getting annoyed I do give them the answer. Yeah they could have google-stalked me first but that isn't all that good a way to get to know someone.
But I cannot really judge this because I just see what I consider a really clean forum! Maybe there just is heck of a lot of moderation going on that most of us never get to see and causes upset because it's seen as unnecessary workload. I cannot judge this.
I agree that there are posts that don't belong here, but the question is how/where to draw the line. For example I do not have an issue with "Name this addon" threads, just like I don't mind "Show your UI" threads.
I think the signal to noise ratio has gotten bad since about the time of the WowAce and Curse merger announcement. And most of the threads for specific addons have gotten so long that unless you catchup on those threads every few days you might as well just ignore them.
I cannot judge that either. I do agree that from my perspective things have changed but rather that WoWAce forum thread traffic has gone down in the threads I care about and comments on Curse have exploded. It used to be more WoWAce heavy.
I do remember that unsuspecting newbies did get their rough ride before the transition/announcement too though, more from Indy back then though.
Certainly what is noise is matter of taste. I remember that discord thread. I found that thread mostly unproblematic. While a mild case for advertising could have been made if one really wanted to be upset about it, one could equally well just consider that one harmless. I think some tolerance for some noise floor is kind of inevitable. And to be just slightly permissive if a positive interpretation suggests itself cannot hurt all that much.
But I don't think going the full route of the EJ forums is the right way at all. Maybe some kind of guidelines to follow before posting that everybody needs to read should be added (with stuff about what should be posted in each section and to use the search function before posting since ours actually works unlike Blizzards) but the problem with that is getting everybody to actually read it.
Maybe that would help but I'm not sure. I don't think it hurts to have guidelines up to help people who do read first to do it better first time. But I'm the first to be guilty to never read instructions for anything and suspect that this is true for loads of people if not virtually everybody.
Maybe if the forums did clean up a bit some of us wouldn't get as angry that often....
One thing I totally agree with is that being in anything that resembles "customer support" or just repeat interactions with large crowds of strangers can be hard, especially over long periods of time. I'd be lying if I said that I hadn't had posters in the Recount thread that tested my patience. But objectively these posters are very few. So few in fact that just deciding to move on is very easy for me and I don't think there is any problem to address there at all.
Here is a basic question though: You have an inexperienced user who found a bug and wants to give feedback on it, but has little experience in that. The addon is hosted on WowAce, Curse and say another site. He comes here and posts the the addon doesn' work with X symptoms but isn't the best in finding the right spot, also they are not yet good at describing the symptoms right. What is the right reaction and what's the result of the reaction?
My reaction is that it's worthwhile to react in kind, explain in a friendly tone where to best post feedback the next time and role-model how to get to better symptom description. In a sense I do that all the time in Recount feedback (and why I favor forums over tickets). I can iterate and in fact get good feedback from posts that initially wouldn't have enough substance to give me a clue what's going on.
If I just tell those off, I achieve the following things: (1) I lost a source of feedback (2) I failed to teach better ways of giving feedback and (3) I failed to invite in someone who might be a good source of feedback the next time and finally (4) I shewed someone off who might otherwise have discovered this as a community to learn modding. Many of us have started as users first and slowly transitioned to write mods too. I don't even know how aweful my first post on this forum was :P
*edit: "You" is being used as a general term directed at everyone who bothers to read the post*
I don't know why it's so difficult to just ignore the things that annoy you. Most of the time there's a pretty decent warning before you even click on the thread link, just from titles alone. You, me, that person over there in the corner with the parrot on his head, and others may not have the patience to deal with certain people/topics, but others do, and probably will. It's just like a movie, tv show, or radio program you don't like. You don't need to watch/listen to it, you don't even need to acknowledge it's existence, it's a personal choice to enter/acknowledge threads that annoy you.
Everyone has their bad days, everyone has their cranky moments, and everyone has those times where they're pushed a bit too far. All in all though, there's no reason to be offensive. If you feel the need to slag someone off for what ever reason, just don't, close the tab/window you have open, and go read something else that'll actually interest you. Smart assery, vulgarity, sarcasm, snideness, etc all have their place, they can be funny; but being offensive is another playing field all together.
This is the internet, you know damn well someone with "this error from an addon I haven't updated since last year, is popping up", or "HAI! I YOOZ DIZ ADDON FROM ANUDDER SYT KEN U HALP ME FIX PLX?". Just accept it, and ignore it, they don't tend to last more than 5 posts (in their own thread). If you actually enjoy the community, be constructive, be constructive with sarcasm mixed in, be a grumpy old man on the porch saying 'in MY day...', just don't be offensive. I'm not talking about calling the UPS delivery guy a Package Delivery Management Technician form of anti-offensiveness, that's just stupid.
Also, this thread didn't really need to go on so long, most of the real points were made a while back. I don't think this needs to be EJ, or substantially changed in any over-the-top manner. The community has really tended to moderate itself, with the exception of a few hot spots here and there. Eh... now i've posted a book. >.>
Its usually easy to tell the difference between a serious attempt but not complete and a half-assed bug report. Since maintaining Ckknights addons, half-assed bug reports with things like "I get an error, it doesn't work" but without saying what the error is drive me nuts. Xbeep's bug report that set me off is very much on the border though, it says a library upgrade path is broken specifically because an error is thrown but doesn't mention the error. As a bug report submitted by a developer with 5 projects on the site I damn well expected better. A method to reproduce was given but I haven't logged into WoW for over two weeks and I definitely don't intend to login for the solo purpose of attempting to reproduce a bug that I couldn't find after reviewing the latest code.
Whenever I see half-ass tickets on FuBar or Cartographer, especially ones that aren't specific but a wild guess makes me think its about either an already known issue or is completely unrelated and doesn't belong, I just close the ticket without asking for more info because I already know they aren't going to give more info so the specific issue can be identified.
Also, this thread didn't really need to go on so long, most of the real points were made a while back. I don't think this needs to be EJ, or substantially changed in any over-the-top manner. The community has really tended to moderate itself, with the exception of a few hot spots here and there.
Pretty much. The thread did not really add anything new or important or generally anything we were not already aware of. It's basically a list of beaten to death points by well-known people we already knew had those views in the first place. This started out as a thread versus one person and one person only, Arrowmaster and from that point of view it should never have been made public (not saying I condone Arrows behavior), but rather the ones offended should have brought it to the attention of a moderator or Kaelten himself and it would all have ended right there. Instead, we need *sigh* again to blow this out or proportion, make example of 1-2 people that went out of their way, so we can be "cool" and "pleasant". As Squeeg pointed out, there is no real need for it. If anything, I would see the value in a topic dealing with how moderators should be moderating (not implying that they did anything wrong in this particular case), since there is a need for a clearly defined code of conduc.
Ok guys we seem to be going in cirlces here, and I don't want any more finger pointing.
We're going to work up some more detailed code of conduct guidelines and I think it'd be good if we picked up some more moderators. I'm also interested in suggestions on structure and ways we can make the forums more usable.
Mods, please don't post here now that I've locked it.