Marking anything as out of date doesn't stop people from downloading it... there are still compilations on WoWUI that haven't been updated since TBC that are still downloaded dozens of times daily, if the "downloads today" statistic shown is true.
None of these things have anything to do with an author's right to control how their work is distributed, or are in any way arguments in favor of the existence of compilations. They are all issues that all addon users face when an addon undergoes the kind of changes you describe.
I'm sorry Phanx for the misunderstanding. I was not saying anything about anyone's rights. I was trying to point out, that auto-updated addon list + static WTF based compilation have similar issues or even worse issues as complete compilations. The compilation uploader may have done at least a bit of work of testing and checking for compatibility of addons in his compilation...
About the screenshots: in my oppinion people are downloading compilations based on looks (screenshots) and thus they want all addons to look just like on the compilation screenshots. If an automatically updated addon has different UI, it will look different no matter how good the SavedVariables update path is. (This problem is related just to compilations as all addon authors will update their screenshots on their addon pages. Also such update can be released just few days after the compilation release making the compilation "broken" in very short duration.)
About the update paths: when someone is playing WoW, he will probably update his addons continuously and thus his SavedVariables would be in near-current state... Should the addon be able to read settings from compilation with one year old SavedVariables? Do you remember how many players came asking about the DogTag changes about a year ago? How would it be now if there was an automatically updated compilation with all these old custom DogTags?
From my author perspective retaining whole update path creates to much work for me and I am simply going to throw out settings which are no longer supported.
Compilations that don't get updated every 2 months should automatically get deleted or get marked out of date in my opinion.
Agreed! :cool:
Just a few thoughts about automatic compilations:
- Addon authors should be able to opt-out/opt-in from the system (to make Phanx and others happy)
- Addon authors should be able to mark major UI/functional changes after which the addon would be no longer updated in the compilation and the compilation will be marked out-of-date/deleted. Only the compilation uploader is able to fix this and release new version.
About the update paths: when someone is playing WoW, he will probably update his addons continuously and thus his SavedVariables would be in near-current state... Should the addon be able to read settings from compilation with one year old SavedVariables? Do you remember how many players came asking about the DogTag changes about a year ago? How would it be now if there was an automatically updated compilation with all these old custom DogTags?
Yes, but these problems aren't any different if the compilation includes the whole addon; in fact the problems are worse. If someone downloads a year-old compilation with a year-old DogTag, the addons won't even work. It won't be a matter of "result doesn't look exactly like screenshot", it will be "result is the default UI and millions of errors". If someone downloads a year-old compilation and then updates their addons because the addons don't work anymore, they'll still get the errors and updating issues.
I don't know what you mean by "automatically updated" compilation... when significant changes occur, the compilation uploader (who presumably is using his own compilation) should adjust his settings for the new addon versions and publish the new settings.
When it comes right down to it, though, if people are not able to deal with these kind of problems, they should not use compilations, or probably even addons. These are very simple problems with very simple solutions; if someone is unable or unwilling to spend ten minutes configuring an addon, they don't have some special privelege that dictates that others must do it for them. If the simple task of configuring an addon is such an overwhelming burden, don't use the addon. It's as simple as that.
I see basically the same issue all of the time with people asking if X addon will do Y feature rather than simply downloading and installing it to see for themselves. I pointed this out once and the person basically said "I don't feel like taking the time to do this then load WoW and uninstall it if I don't like it". Instead, the person will take the time to check the thread constantly to see if anyone has answered. It's friggin' awesome.
I don't know what you mean by "automatically updated" compilation... when significant changes occur, the compilation uploader (who presumably is using his own compilation) should adjust his settings for the new addon versions and publish the new settings.
"automatically updated compilation" = the compilation based on list of addons which are automacally updated by the distribution site to the newest version + WTF folder with settings.
You are right compilations with outdated addons and WTF are worse then automatically updated compilations with updated addons and outdated WTF.
My line of thinking was:
- user downloads outdated compilation -> bazillion of errors are thrown and nothing works -> user decides the compilation doesn't work and deletes it or bothers the compilation author to release a new one
- user downloads automatically updated compilations with outdated WTF folder -> addons generally work with the exception of few, which were changed and doesn't support the old SavedVariables -> user goes to the addon author, because only his addon doesn't work :(
And that happened in 1989, over a decade before WoW was even a twinkle in Blizzard's eye, and is therefore completely irrelevant to this discussion. And since I live in the US, and my addons are written in the US, they are protected by US copyright law; this is quite plainly stated in my license, if you or anyone else would ever bother to take the 30 seconds to read it.
And yet in terms of copyright law history it is still yet a blink of an eye ago this change happened; and even still this is not 100% universal in all counties and not all places honor US copyrights. The relevance here is simply that you were harking on 'its the law its the law' and how people should all know this. Given all the jurisdictions and the interactions between them and most trying to claim they are the one that applies (cases have claimed jurisdiction for being the start point, the end point and transmission points of data traveling the wires). You already said you did not bother to consider a license or copyright notice when you first put your work online, in some jurisdictions it is now public domain materials. Just as you are right under US law that it is protected by US copyright, they would be right that they have the right to use it as a public domain work by downloading it in theirs. Luckily they are mostly very poorly connected 'piranha' states for the most part. You could spend your entire lifetime just trying to read the law and never get through them all let alone figure out their interactions. As for me taking the 30 seconds to read them, I had for your addons before when browsing wowi thank you very much for your attempt to imply otherwise for whatever reason. Now... at least for me once I do find and start to use an addon, updating it is mostly an automatic process, I am highly unlikely to notice a change in terms past my initial checking out of an addon.
I hope it never comes to the point where I have to think about filing legal claims, since the major UI sites actually respect authors' rights and wishes and will remove compilations that redistribute addons without the author's consent. That said, though, I could wrap my addon in 50 pages of legalese
Yes, I would find it hard to imagine that many wow addons would really be worth that much expensive and effort to protect. In fact they are probably not worth the aggravation they seem to already be causing you, especially since it is not really the code you are trying to protect since you do not care what is done with it under a different name. It really does seem like it is not so much the copyright you want to protect as your good name and the addons?
and it still wouldn't help, because 99.99% of the issue is that people do not read anything, as evidenced by the fact that every uploader I've contacted who has responded (and I'm guessing the others simply never got the message) has promptly removed my addon and said "sorry I didn't know". Nobody argues that copyright and my license aren't valid; they just don't think and don't read, and believe that "not knowing" excuses any wrongdoing they might do in their ignorance.
Seems you are actually getting things cleared up pretty easily then all things considered.
This is hardly a problem specific to the "settings only" kind of compilation; the uploader should release a new version of the compilation regardless. If he isn't posting updates for major new addon features, which don't really come along that frequently in stable addons, how likely is it that he's posting updates necessary for WoW patches, or providing any support for users?
Update regardless? Why? Part of the compilation should be to pick version that works well together, that can take some time. Also feature creep in an addon can mean a compilation would not want to update. I would think an addon that required you to always update it would not be suitable for a compilation as it could take time to bring in properly if at all depending on the changes.
Not really. Give users a list of links to authors' download pages, and let them download and update their addons like everyone else. Having updated addons is not some divine right of which all mankind is possessed. Neither you nor anyone else is entitled to the use any addon. If updating addons once a month is too hard (believe it or not, you don't really need to download every update that comes along), then don't use addons.
Had been trying that... got sick of dealing with supporting that, lol... no idea why but to a few people I help out, they find unzipping more then a file or two 'hard', so I broke down and automated it for them.... in this case I was just thinking out loud about the earlier post someone had of suppling a list of what should be downloaded and an autoupdated for that.
And here you go again. for someone who complains of others not reading, you sure seem to imagine that people have written a lot of things they never did.... where did I say anything about entitlement, or how hard it is for me to update or not update an addon. And now you who was complaining that addons are not updated quickly enough in compilation then switch to saying you don't have to download every update... lol I agree... I still use NetBSD 2.x and prefer windows 2000 when I have to use windows, but it is a funny shift on your part. Speaking of divine rights..... Copyright itself is not a divine right, it was created by man. Oddly enough it was created to encourage the sharing of works (publishing of them) and also part of the intent was to create a public domain from these works after a limited time. Many intellectual property theorist in fact try to argue that it is a divine right to copy things when it does not cause the original to be consumed. Very funny that you would pick that piece of hyperbola in a way the opposite many think of it.
It is freeware. There's a difference between "freeware" and "public domain". Educate yourself before you post things that don't make sense.
Oddly enough, freeware was the original trademarked term for what is now considered shareware.
This. Go look at any addon's download page comments. Go look at any addon's forum thread. Go look at any place anywhere where users report bugs for WoW addons. Look at the percent of reports that make any sense at all, let alone are detailed enough to be of any use. If you provide support for your compilation and are willing to hold hands and gently explain to users over and over again that they need to update their addons, that's great, but you are a very, very, very small minority.
Support is the issue? Or reputation? I myself don't really feel any requirement to give support for works I give freely. I usually will but it is not an obligation I feel.
I see basically the same issue all of the time with people asking if X addon will do Y feature rather than simply downloading and installing it to see for themselves. I pointed this out once and the person basically said "I don't feel like taking the time to do this then load WoW and uninstall it if I don't like it". Instead, the person will take the time to check the thread constantly to see if anyone has answered. It's friggin' awesome.
[/Derail]
lol, I think I saw that, it was about LDB addons....
now I am getting tempted to ask people what unit frame addons they like, lol, finding that one to be a real pain to find one that suits me so far...
I skipped over the last couple of posts here. I just want to say a couple of things:
1. Phanx, you may or may not have consulted a lawyer on the subject of copyright law. Hell, you may be a lawyer for all I know. But if you aren't, and haven't consulted one, I would be careful about making claims about what the law says with such finality. Not saying you're wrong - just saying you may not be right. I'm not gonna argue about it, either.
2. To me, the ideal "compilation" would be an xml file, in a standard format, readable by any of several "updater" programs, which would allow the updater program to go to the addon site of the addon author's choice and download the addon, for each addon in the compilation. As for .wtf files, which someone mentioned, well, my favorite compilation doesn't provide them, and I really don't have any problem with configuring addons myself, so I don't really see the need - but they could certainly be included, if enough people decide there is a need.
What is, I think, needed for this idea to work is for addon and updater authors to get together and decide on a common format for the xml file. Not holdin' my breath on that one. :-)
2. To me, the ideal "compilation" would be an xml file, in a standard format, readable by any of several "updater" programs, which would allow the updater program to go to the addon site of the addon author's choice and download the addon, for each addon in the compilation. As for .wtf files, which someone mentioned, well, my favorite compilation doesn't provide them, and I really don't have any problem with configuring addons myself, so I don't really see the need - but they could certainly be included, if enough people decide there is a need.
Selecting list of addons and making this list available for other users was already implemented in WUU. I don't know the implementation details, but each addon list was described by hash easily sharable with other users.
And yet in terms of copyright law history it is still yet a blink of an eye ago this change happened;
What point are you trying to make with this? If the speed limit on your road was 40 mph for 60 years, and then 20 years ago it was changed to 25 mph, and tomorrow you're driving 40 mph and a police officer pulls you over and writes you a ticket for exceeding the speed limit, do you really think he will be swayed if you tell him that the speed limit 20 years ago was 40 mph? Even if the speed limit was only changed last week, you would still get the ticket. As a driver, it is your responsibility to know the laws that apply, or at least to read the posted signs. If you've ever gone to court to contest a traffic ticket, you've undoubtedly heard other contesters telling the judge hilariously pathetic tales of their own ignorance; the response is always that ignorance does not excuse wrongdoing.
The relevance here is simply that you were harking on 'its the law its the law' and how people should all know this.
I don't expect the average user to know anything about copyright law or software licensing. But the moment you cease to be a user, and start to be a distributor, it becomes your responsibility to know.
You already said you did not bother to consider a license or copyright notice when you first put your work online, in some jurisdictions it is now public domain materials.
Just so, and I already addressed this in an earlier post. However, I would be willing to bet a significant sum that every single compilation I've found including my addon(s) was uploaded from a country which respects US copyright laws for materials produced by US residents in the US. Additionally, it's difficult to argue this point when the files you are distributing in your compilation plainly feature a copyright notice and license terms.
As for me taking the 30 seconds to read them, I had for your addons before when browsing wowi thank you very much for your attempt to imply otherwise for whatever reason.
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I looked over my previous posts in this thread and cannot find anywhere where I "attempted" to "imply" anything about you. And quite honestly, I had to scroll down to see who you even were, as I have merely been responding to the arguments you wrote, not to you personally.
Now... at least for me once I do find and start to use an addon, updating it is mostly an automatic process, I am highly unlikely to notice a change in terms past my initial checking out of an addon.
All well and good, for a user. I don't read the licenses for most of the addons I use either, as all I am doing is downloading the addon and running it on a single personal computer for personal use. But you bet your ass that if I ever got in the mood to package up any of those addons and upload my UI, I would take the time to look through each addon for license terms.
To be absolutely clear, I do not expect any user to ever read my license or to know anything about copyright law. However, there is an important distinction between users and distributors, and I do expect the latter to have at least a basic knowledge of the rules governing the activities they have voluntarily chosen to engage in.
Seems you are actually getting things cleared up pretty easily then all things considered.
Let's say you have a nice lawn. Let's say people frequently walk their dogs across your lawn and leave behind smelly brown piles. Sure, it's easy to knock on your neighbor's door and ask him to please not let his dog crap on your lawn, and sure, he'll probably apologize and promise not to do it again. But do you really want to knock on a dozen doors a week forever to get each person to stop this unpleasant behavior, while every day a new dog uses your lawn as a bathroom? It would be so much easier if people would just read the sign you posted in front of your lawn saying "please clean up after your dog", wouldn't it?
Part of the compilation should be to pick version that works well together, that can take some time. Also feature creep in an addon can mean a compilation would not want to update. I would think an addon that required you to always update it would not be suitable for a compilation as it could take time to bring in properly if at all depending on the changes.
So, addon authors should avoid making any changes in their addons that might make compilation uploaders and compilation users spend a few minutes changing a few settings?
If compilation uploaders and compilation users want to use an outdated version of an addon, that's fine. They don't have to update. Yet every item on the "list of reasons compilations that don't include addons are trouble" that was posted earlier had to do with updating. A compilation could easily include only settings, and provide, in addition to links to each addon that should be downloaded, a version number that the user should download, or a message saying "tested only with version X".
And here you go again. for someone who complains of others not reading, you sure seem to imagine that people have written a lot of things they never did.... where did I say anything about entitlement, or how hard it is for me to update or not update an addon.
I'm getting the impression that English is not your native tongue. If this is the case, then I apologize for the confusion my previous posts have apparently caused. In English, it is common to use "you" in a general sense, without referring to the person being spoken to. If this is not the case, then, well, I don't know what to tell you. The statement you quoted was a "general you", not a "you, the person writing under the alias twobits".
And now you who was complaining that addons are not updated quickly enough in compilation then switch to saying you don't have to download every update... lol I agree... I still use NetBSD 2.x and prefer windows 2000 when I have to use windows, but it is a funny shift on your part.
Stop taking everything out of context. Someone said "if compilations don't include the addon files, then when a user updates a year-old compilation, the new version of the addon might not work with the settings that were supplied by the compilation". I responded that this was not an argument in favor of compilations including addon files, but an issue that could be very easily solved by the compilation uploader updating the settings. Nowhere did I complain that compilations weren't updated frequently enough.
Speaking of divine rights..... Copyright itself is not a divine right, it was created by man. Oddly enough it was created to encourage the sharing of works (publishing of them) and also part of the intent was to create a public domain from these works after a limited time. Many intellectual property theorist in fact try to argue that it is a divine right to copy things when it does not cause the original to be consumed. Very funny that you would pick that piece of hyperbola in a way the opposite many think of it.
Apparently we are using the word "divine" in different ways. I never meant to imply that copyright was not a human concept. Indeed, I do not believe in anything "divine" as you are using the word. I'll try to avoid using words that may have religious connotations in the future, as religion could not be more irrelevant to this discussion.
Yes, copyright was created to encourage publication -- by guaranteeing that when you published something, a dozen other people couldn't turn around and publish ripoffs. Yes, the intent was to limit the term of protection -- yet you yourself have said that 20 years is a "blink of an eye", while any work relevant to this specific discussion (i.e. any of my addons) has existed for only one-tenth of that time. Even the original copyright law, in the US at least, lasted for more than two years. I fail to see how anything I have said is in opposition to this intent.
1. Phanx, you may or may not have consulted a lawyer on the subject of copyright law. Hell, you may be a lawyer for all I know. But if you aren't, and haven't consulted one, I would be careful about making claims about what the law says with such finality. Not saying you're wrong - just saying you may not be right. I'm not gonna argue about it, either.
The legal points I am arguing are very specific, and I have only brought them up because without some legal rights involved, it seems that most people are entirely willing to trample all over my personal wishes. Laws are written in a complex fashion because they must be extremely specific, or any criminal with an IQ larger than his shoe size could find a dozen loopholes. However, the essence of the law is not at all complex. In this case, there is an entire website published by the US government's copyright office that is dedicated to explaining copyright in simple terms that are easily understood by anyone. Here are a few excerpts that I am quite confident in the veracity of and in my understanding of. Bold added for emphasis.
"Copyright, a form of intellectual property law, protects original works of authorship including literary, dramatic, musical, and artistic works, such as poetry, novels, movies, songs, computer software, and architecture."
"Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device."
"Copyright exists from the moment the work is created."
"... if registration occurs within 5 years of publication, it is considered prima facie evidence in a court of law."
That last one is important, because multiple people have pointed out that I would be unable to pursue a formal legal case because I have not registered my work. As the earliest publication of any of my addons occurred in late 2006 (and I have retained archival copies of every released version), I still have nearly three years in which to register if I feel such is necessary. However, as I have stated previously, I sincerely hope that I never reach that point.
As I've stated many times, this problem is not about people intentionally disregarding the law. This problem is not about people believing that the law does not apply. This problem is not about the law at all. This problem is about people not reading, even when they lack vital knowledge that they could obtain in less than 30 seconds of reading.
What is, I think, needed for this idea to work is for addon and updater authors to get together and decide on a common format for the xml file. Not holdin' my breath on that one. :-)
Yeah, that will never happen. Not only because you'll never get a consensus, or probably even a majority, on an acceptable format, but also because not all authors want their addons indiscriminately included in compilations. On the rare occasion someone actually asks if it's okay to include my addon in their compilation, I ask them to send me a screenshot, because if it looks like garbage, I don't want my work associated with it. Other authors may feel differently, and may only be concerned with gaining as large a userbase as possible. No XML format will address these issues. :p
Selecting list of addons and making this list available for other users was already implemented in WUU. I don't know the implementation details, but each addon list was described by hash easily sharable with other users.
WAU did it too, it just wasnt in the list of things people did most.
What is this thread about anyways?
Re distribution rights: You have lots of rights - but you need money to defend them - if you dont have that, or dont want to spend it, (and the FSF turns you away). then you are SOL.
The only "real" reason I can see, is supporting users of those addon packs. That is why you need to have some kind of system to filter out that noise.
I'd like the thread to move to the point we came up with some ideas ;) I don't like people bashing each other over some stupid issues. If Phanx doesn't want her addons included in compilation she has all rights not to allow it and there should be now discussion about it!
My posts were trying to point out issues of the new distribution idea. Now is the time to come up with anything that would make most of the users/authors/distributors happy.
Current distribution solutions are:
- Distribute whole addon compilation with whole WTF folder (classic compilations) - useful to get the "looks"
- Distribute list of addons without any SavedVariables (WUU, WAU AddonPacks) - usefull to get "set of features"
- Distribute settings in WTF folder with list of addons to use - addons could be installed manually by the users or automatically put together by the distribution site (automatically updated compilations) - should be able to get the "looks", but has problems as described above
- Do not distribute compilations at all... - this is hard, because the market is already there
- something else?
Tools to help out with the issues raised by using compilations:
- Be able to disallow someones addons to appear in compilations
- Delete out-of-date compilations
- Mark automatically updated compilations as out-of-date if major update is made to one of its addons
- more?
Well, if someone is serious about a compilation, then...
The privately hosted compilation. Gather addons together, and host them on you own site. Give your users an updater (you can use wau actually).
Profit.
Oh, one last thing. Generally you dont install things to WTF. You place the settings in a LoD addon, and then just load it one time once they have logged in, or if they delete all thier saved variables, you can just reload it.
Its a service really. You can even let your users sumbit addon preset configurations. Lots of ways to add value by being user focused.
Selecting list of addons and making this list available for other users was already implemented in WUU. I don't know the implementation details, but each addon list was described by hash easily sharable with other users.
If you've ever gone to court to contest a traffic ticket, you've undoubtedly heard other contesters telling the judge hilariously pathetic tales of their own ignorance; the response is always that ignorance does not excuse wrongdoing.
That turns out not to be the case. For example, when I was in high school, some friends and I went to the beach one day. Coming home, my friend who was driving (a convertible, top down, full of high school kids) was keeping up with the other traffic - all of which was going about 10 mph over the speed limit. My friend was stopped and given a speeding ticket. Some of us went to court to provide a little moral support. We saw a man who'd been ticketed for "55 in a 30" (25 MPH over the limit) get off on the argument that he'd just got off the expressway, and wasn't used to doing 30 yet. Another who'd stopped, and backed up on the expressway, because he'd missed his exit. His story was that he was going to be late for dinner (again) if he kept going to the next exit, and if he got home late for dinner, his wife would kill him. He got a $15 fine. There were other similar tales. Then my friend got to the bar. He opined that it would have been unsafe for him, in fairly heavy traffic, to go 10 MPH slower than everyone else. Didn't cut no ice with the judge. BAM! $25 dollar fine. Don't let the small dollar figures surprise you - this was more than 40 years ago.
Actually, I think my friend was fined for "driving while 18", not for speeding. :rolleyes:
"Copyright exists from the moment the work is created."
Yeah, I know. I was thinking more along the lines of the "fair use" doctrine. That wouldn't apply to compilers who want to make a profit from their compilation (if there are any), but it might apply to those who are just trying to provide a service for others, I dunno. :confused:
This problem is not about the law at all.
Earlier, you said
The legal points I am arguing are very specific, and I have only brought them up because without some legal rights involved, it seems that most people are entirely willing to trample all over my personal wishes.
So it seems it is about the law.;)
On the rare occasion someone actually asks if it's okay to include my addon in their compilation, I ask them to send me a screenshot, because if it looks like garbage, I don't want my work associated with it.
Your right, of course. But I wonder - if an individual (not a compiler) posts a screen shot of his UI, and it "looks like garbage", do you ask him not to include your addon in such shots?
Other authors may feel differently, and may only be concerned with gaining as large a userbase as possible. No XML format will address these issues. :p
Fair enough. It was an idea. I'm not married to it.:cool:
That turns out not to be the case. ... Didn't cut no ice with the judge. BAM! $25 dollar fine. Don't let the small dollar figures surprise you - this was more than 40 years ago.
This was my point -- judges don't care if you're going to be late for dinner, or if you thought it was safer to drive faster, or if you didn't see the speed limit sign. You still get the fine. It doesn't matter why you broke the law; you still did it.
The law is not the problem. The problem is that people don't read anything. The law is relevant, but it is neither the root of the problem nor a solution to the problem. Compilation uploaders don't even need to know or understand the law (although they really should). They just need to read the few lines of text that comprise my license.
Your right, of course. But I wonder - if an individual (not a compiler) posts a screen shot of his UI, and it "looks like garbage", do you ask him not to include your addon in such shots?
No; how is that even relevant? As long as that individual isn't redistributing my addon, I don't care, and would have no legal standing even if I did care.
Your right, of course. But I wonder - if an individual (not a compiler) posts a screen shot of his UI, and it "looks like garbage", do you ask him not to include your addon in such shots?
Are you just arguing to argue or does this actually have a point? All I see is you comparing apples to oranges.
What needs to be done is that web sites do something like was mentioned before, where a compilation author picks out the addons he's using and lists them, whether it be XML, a selected list, or whatever. The hosting site then packages those addons into a big zip for the user. Additionally, an author should be able to opt out of compilation inclusion.
There's a ton of problems with the current implementation...
Out of date addons.
Inability to track download statistics on the included addon
Blatant disregard for the author's wishes/licensing
Excessive duplicates of the same packages/files on the file server
Excessive bandwidth usage
Etc, etc... A solution like was mentioned would address all of those if implemented correctly.
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I'm sorry Phanx for the misunderstanding. I was not saying anything about anyone's rights. I was trying to point out, that auto-updated addon list + static WTF based compilation have similar issues or even worse issues as complete compilations. The compilation uploader may have done at least a bit of work of testing and checking for compatibility of addons in his compilation...
About the screenshots: in my oppinion people are downloading compilations based on looks (screenshots) and thus they want all addons to look just like on the compilation screenshots. If an automatically updated addon has different UI, it will look different no matter how good the SavedVariables update path is. (This problem is related just to compilations as all addon authors will update their screenshots on their addon pages. Also such update can be released just few days after the compilation release making the compilation "broken" in very short duration.)
About the update paths: when someone is playing WoW, he will probably update his addons continuously and thus his SavedVariables would be in near-current state... Should the addon be able to read settings from compilation with one year old SavedVariables? Do you remember how many players came asking about the DogTag changes about a year ago? How would it be now if there was an automatically updated compilation with all these old custom DogTags?
From my author perspective retaining whole update path creates to much work for me and I am simply going to throw out settings which are no longer supported.
Agreed! :cool:
Just a few thoughts about automatic compilations:
- Addon authors should be able to opt-out/opt-in from the system (to make Phanx and others happy)
- Addon authors should be able to mark major UI/functional changes after which the addon would be no longer updated in the compilation and the compilation will be marked out-of-date/deleted. Only the compilation uploader is able to fix this and release new version.
Yes, but these problems aren't any different if the compilation includes the whole addon; in fact the problems are worse. If someone downloads a year-old compilation with a year-old DogTag, the addons won't even work. It won't be a matter of "result doesn't look exactly like screenshot", it will be "result is the default UI and millions of errors". If someone downloads a year-old compilation and then updates their addons because the addons don't work anymore, they'll still get the errors and updating issues.
I don't know what you mean by "automatically updated" compilation... when significant changes occur, the compilation uploader (who presumably is using his own compilation) should adjust his settings for the new addon versions and publish the new settings.
When it comes right down to it, though, if people are not able to deal with these kind of problems, they should not use compilations, or probably even addons. These are very simple problems with very simple solutions; if someone is unable or unwilling to spend ten minutes configuring an addon, they don't have some special privelege that dictates that others must do it for them. If the simple task of configuring an addon is such an overwhelming burden, don't use the addon. It's as simple as that.
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Project AuthorI see basically the same issue all of the time with people asking if X addon will do Y feature rather than simply downloading and installing it to see for themselves. I pointed this out once and the person basically said "I don't feel like taking the time to do this then load WoW and uninstall it if I don't like it". Instead, the person will take the time to check the thread constantly to see if anyone has answered. It's friggin' awesome.
[/Derail]
"automatically updated compilation" = the compilation based on list of addons which are automacally updated by the distribution site to the newest version + WTF folder with settings.
You are right compilations with outdated addons and WTF are worse then automatically updated compilations with updated addons and outdated WTF.
My line of thinking was:
- user downloads outdated compilation -> bazillion of errors are thrown and nothing works -> user decides the compilation doesn't work and deletes it or bothers the compilation author to release a new one
- user downloads automatically updated compilations with outdated WTF folder -> addons generally work with the exception of few, which were changed and doesn't support the old SavedVariables -> user goes to the addon author, because only his addon doesn't work :(
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Curse PremiumAnd yet in terms of copyright law history it is still yet a blink of an eye ago this change happened; and even still this is not 100% universal in all counties and not all places honor US copyrights. The relevance here is simply that you were harking on 'its the law its the law' and how people should all know this. Given all the jurisdictions and the interactions between them and most trying to claim they are the one that applies (cases have claimed jurisdiction for being the start point, the end point and transmission points of data traveling the wires). You already said you did not bother to consider a license or copyright notice when you first put your work online, in some jurisdictions it is now public domain materials. Just as you are right under US law that it is protected by US copyright, they would be right that they have the right to use it as a public domain work by downloading it in theirs. Luckily they are mostly very poorly connected 'piranha' states for the most part. You could spend your entire lifetime just trying to read the law and never get through them all let alone figure out their interactions. As for me taking the 30 seconds to read them, I had for your addons before when browsing wowi thank you very much for your attempt to imply otherwise for whatever reason. Now... at least for me once I do find and start to use an addon, updating it is mostly an automatic process, I am highly unlikely to notice a change in terms past my initial checking out of an addon.
Yes, I would find it hard to imagine that many wow addons would really be worth that much expensive and effort to protect. In fact they are probably not worth the aggravation they seem to already be causing you, especially since it is not really the code you are trying to protect since you do not care what is done with it under a different name. It really does seem like it is not so much the copyright you want to protect as your good name and the addons?
Seems you are actually getting things cleared up pretty easily then all things considered.
Update regardless? Why? Part of the compilation should be to pick version that works well together, that can take some time. Also feature creep in an addon can mean a compilation would not want to update. I would think an addon that required you to always update it would not be suitable for a compilation as it could take time to bring in properly if at all depending on the changes.
Had been trying that... got sick of dealing with supporting that, lol... no idea why but to a few people I help out, they find unzipping more then a file or two 'hard', so I broke down and automated it for them.... in this case I was just thinking out loud about the earlier post someone had of suppling a list of what should be downloaded and an autoupdated for that.
And here you go again. for someone who complains of others not reading, you sure seem to imagine that people have written a lot of things they never did.... where did I say anything about entitlement, or how hard it is for me to update or not update an addon. And now you who was complaining that addons are not updated quickly enough in compilation then switch to saying you don't have to download every update... lol I agree... I still use NetBSD 2.x and prefer windows 2000 when I have to use windows, but it is a funny shift on your part. Speaking of divine rights..... Copyright itself is not a divine right, it was created by man. Oddly enough it was created to encourage the sharing of works (publishing of them) and also part of the intent was to create a public domain from these works after a limited time. Many intellectual property theorist in fact try to argue that it is a divine right to copy things when it does not cause the original to be consumed. Very funny that you would pick that piece of hyperbola in a way the opposite many think of it.
Oddly enough, freeware was the original trademarked term for what is now considered shareware.
Support is the issue? Or reputation? I myself don't really feel any requirement to give support for works I give freely. I usually will but it is not an obligation I feel.
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Curse Premiumlol, I think I saw that, it was about LDB addons....
now I am getting tempted to ask people what unit frame addons they like, lol, finding that one to be a real pain to find one that suits me so far...
1. Phanx, you may or may not have consulted a lawyer on the subject of copyright law. Hell, you may be a lawyer for all I know. But if you aren't, and haven't consulted one, I would be careful about making claims about what the law says with such finality. Not saying you're wrong - just saying you may not be right. I'm not gonna argue about it, either.
2. To me, the ideal "compilation" would be an xml file, in a standard format, readable by any of several "updater" programs, which would allow the updater program to go to the addon site of the addon author's choice and download the addon, for each addon in the compilation. As for .wtf files, which someone mentioned, well, my favorite compilation doesn't provide them, and I really don't have any problem with configuring addons myself, so I don't really see the need - but they could certainly be included, if enough people decide there is a need.
What is, I think, needed for this idea to work is for addon and updater authors to get together and decide on a common format for the xml file. Not holdin' my breath on that one. :-)
Selecting list of addons and making this list available for other users was already implemented in WUU. I don't know the implementation details, but each addon list was described by hash easily sharable with other users.
Reference AddonPack: http://wuu.vagabonds.info/wuuki/AddonPack:19cc7d9403c48849966d011ef101bb5a
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Curse PremiumThey are free. To use. For yourself.
Very selfish/arrogant/greedy/disrespectful user.
What point are you trying to make with this? If the speed limit on your road was 40 mph for 60 years, and then 20 years ago it was changed to 25 mph, and tomorrow you're driving 40 mph and a police officer pulls you over and writes you a ticket for exceeding the speed limit, do you really think he will be swayed if you tell him that the speed limit 20 years ago was 40 mph? Even if the speed limit was only changed last week, you would still get the ticket. As a driver, it is your responsibility to know the laws that apply, or at least to read the posted signs. If you've ever gone to court to contest a traffic ticket, you've undoubtedly heard other contesters telling the judge hilariously pathetic tales of their own ignorance; the response is always that ignorance does not excuse wrongdoing.
I don't expect the average user to know anything about copyright law or software licensing. But the moment you cease to be a user, and start to be a distributor, it becomes your responsibility to know.
Just so, and I already addressed this in an earlier post. However, I would be willing to bet a significant sum that every single compilation I've found including my addon(s) was uploaded from a country which respects US copyright laws for materials produced by US residents in the US. Additionally, it's difficult to argue this point when the files you are distributing in your compilation plainly feature a copyright notice and license terms.
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I looked over my previous posts in this thread and cannot find anywhere where I "attempted" to "imply" anything about you. And quite honestly, I had to scroll down to see who you even were, as I have merely been responding to the arguments you wrote, not to you personally.
All well and good, for a user. I don't read the licenses for most of the addons I use either, as all I am doing is downloading the addon and running it on a single personal computer for personal use. But you bet your ass that if I ever got in the mood to package up any of those addons and upload my UI, I would take the time to look through each addon for license terms.
To be absolutely clear, I do not expect any user to ever read my license or to know anything about copyright law. However, there is an important distinction between users and distributors, and I do expect the latter to have at least a basic knowledge of the rules governing the activities they have voluntarily chosen to engage in.
Let's say you have a nice lawn. Let's say people frequently walk their dogs across your lawn and leave behind smelly brown piles. Sure, it's easy to knock on your neighbor's door and ask him to please not let his dog crap on your lawn, and sure, he'll probably apologize and promise not to do it again. But do you really want to knock on a dozen doors a week forever to get each person to stop this unpleasant behavior, while every day a new dog uses your lawn as a bathroom? It would be so much easier if people would just read the sign you posted in front of your lawn saying "please clean up after your dog", wouldn't it?
So, addon authors should avoid making any changes in their addons that might make compilation uploaders and compilation users spend a few minutes changing a few settings?
If compilation uploaders and compilation users want to use an outdated version of an addon, that's fine. They don't have to update. Yet every item on the "list of reasons compilations that don't include addons are trouble" that was posted earlier had to do with updating. A compilation could easily include only settings, and provide, in addition to links to each addon that should be downloaded, a version number that the user should download, or a message saying "tested only with version X".
I'm getting the impression that English is not your native tongue. If this is the case, then I apologize for the confusion my previous posts have apparently caused. In English, it is common to use "you" in a general sense, without referring to the person being spoken to. If this is not the case, then, well, I don't know what to tell you. The statement you quoted was a "general you", not a "you, the person writing under the alias twobits".
Stop taking everything out of context. Someone said "if compilations don't include the addon files, then when a user updates a year-old compilation, the new version of the addon might not work with the settings that were supplied by the compilation". I responded that this was not an argument in favor of compilations including addon files, but an issue that could be very easily solved by the compilation uploader updating the settings. Nowhere did I complain that compilations weren't updated frequently enough.
Apparently we are using the word "divine" in different ways. I never meant to imply that copyright was not a human concept. Indeed, I do not believe in anything "divine" as you are using the word. I'll try to avoid using words that may have religious connotations in the future, as religion could not be more irrelevant to this discussion.
Yes, copyright was created to encourage publication -- by guaranteeing that when you published something, a dozen other people couldn't turn around and publish ripoffs. Yes, the intent was to limit the term of protection -- yet you yourself have said that 20 years is a "blink of an eye", while any work relevant to this specific discussion (i.e. any of my addons) has existed for only one-tenth of that time. Even the original copyright law, in the US at least, lasted for more than two years. I fail to see how anything I have said is in opposition to this intent.
The legal points I am arguing are very specific, and I have only brought them up because without some legal rights involved, it seems that most people are entirely willing to trample all over my personal wishes. Laws are written in a complex fashion because they must be extremely specific, or any criminal with an IQ larger than his shoe size could find a dozen loopholes. However, the essence of the law is not at all complex. In this case, there is an entire website published by the US government's copyright office that is dedicated to explaining copyright in simple terms that are easily understood by anyone. Here are a few excerpts that I am quite confident in the veracity of and in my understanding of. Bold added for emphasis.
"Copyright, a form of intellectual property law, protects original works of authorship including literary, dramatic, musical, and artistic works, such as poetry, novels, movies, songs, computer software, and architecture."
"Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device."
"Copyright exists from the moment the work is created."
"... if registration occurs within 5 years of publication, it is considered prima facie evidence in a court of law."
That last one is important, because multiple people have pointed out that I would be unable to pursue a formal legal case because I have not registered my work. As the earliest publication of any of my addons occurred in late 2006 (and I have retained archival copies of every released version), I still have nearly three years in which to register if I feel such is necessary. However, as I have stated previously, I sincerely hope that I never reach that point.
As I've stated many times, this problem is not about people intentionally disregarding the law. This problem is not about people believing that the law does not apply. This problem is not about the law at all. This problem is about people not reading, even when they lack vital knowledge that they could obtain in less than 30 seconds of reading.
Yeah, that will never happen. Not only because you'll never get a consensus, or probably even a majority, on an acceptable format, but also because not all authors want their addons indiscriminately included in compilations. On the rare occasion someone actually asks if it's okay to include my addon in their compilation, I ask them to send me a screenshot, because if it looks like garbage, I don't want my work associated with it. Other authors may feel differently, and may only be concerned with gaining as large a userbase as possible. No XML format will address these issues. :p
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Curse PremiumWAU did it too, it just wasnt in the list of things people did most.
What is this thread about anyways?
Re distribution rights: You have lots of rights - but you need money to defend them - if you dont have that, or dont want to spend it, (and the FSF turns you away). then you are SOL.
The only "real" reason I can see, is supporting users of those addon packs. That is why you need to have some kind of system to filter out that noise.
I'd like the thread to move to the point we came up with some ideas ;) I don't like people bashing each other over some stupid issues. If Phanx doesn't want her addons included in compilation she has all rights not to allow it and there should be now discussion about it!
My posts were trying to point out issues of the new distribution idea. Now is the time to come up with anything that would make most of the users/authors/distributors happy.
Current distribution solutions are:
- Distribute whole addon compilation with whole WTF folder (classic compilations) - useful to get the "looks"
- Distribute list of addons without any SavedVariables (WUU, WAU AddonPacks) - usefull to get "set of features"
- Distribute settings in WTF folder with list of addons to use - addons could be installed manually by the users or automatically put together by the distribution site (automatically updated compilations) - should be able to get the "looks", but has problems as described above
- Do not distribute compilations at all... - this is hard, because the market is already there
- something else?
Tools to help out with the issues raised by using compilations:
- Be able to disallow someones addons to appear in compilations
- Delete out-of-date compilations
- Mark automatically updated compilations as out-of-date if major update is made to one of its addons
- more?
selfish? im happy to share anything!
but i dont want to get into e-fights with phanx again =P
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Curse PremiumThe privately hosted compilation. Gather addons together, and host them on you own site. Give your users an updater (you can use wau actually).
Profit.
Oh, one last thing. Generally you dont install things to WTF. You place the settings in a LoD addon, and then just load it one time once they have logged in, or if they delete all thier saved variables, you can just reload it.
Its a service really. You can even let your users sumbit addon preset configurations. Lots of ways to add value by being user focused.
Yes, I know.
That turns out not to be the case. For example, when I was in high school, some friends and I went to the beach one day. Coming home, my friend who was driving (a convertible, top down, full of high school kids) was keeping up with the other traffic - all of which was going about 10 mph over the speed limit. My friend was stopped and given a speeding ticket. Some of us went to court to provide a little moral support. We saw a man who'd been ticketed for "55 in a 30" (25 MPH over the limit) get off on the argument that he'd just got off the expressway, and wasn't used to doing 30 yet. Another who'd stopped, and backed up on the expressway, because he'd missed his exit. His story was that he was going to be late for dinner (again) if he kept going to the next exit, and if he got home late for dinner, his wife would kill him. He got a $15 fine. There were other similar tales. Then my friend got to the bar. He opined that it would have been unsafe for him, in fairly heavy traffic, to go 10 MPH slower than everyone else. Didn't cut no ice with the judge. BAM! $25 dollar fine. Don't let the small dollar figures surprise you - this was more than 40 years ago.
Actually, I think my friend was fined for "driving while 18", not for speeding. :rolleyes:
Yeah, I know. I was thinking more along the lines of the "fair use" doctrine. That wouldn't apply to compilers who want to make a profit from their compilation (if there are any), but it might apply to those who are just trying to provide a service for others, I dunno. :confused:
Earlier, you said
So it seems it is about the law.;)
Your right, of course. But I wonder - if an individual (not a compiler) posts a screen shot of his UI, and it "looks like garbage", do you ask him not to include your addon in such shots?
Fair enough. It was an idea. I'm not married to it.:cool:
This was my point -- judges don't care if you're going to be late for dinner, or if you thought it was safer to drive faster, or if you didn't see the speed limit sign. You still get the fine. It doesn't matter why you broke the law; you still did it.
The law is not the problem. The problem is that people don't read anything. The law is relevant, but it is neither the root of the problem nor a solution to the problem. Compilation uploaders don't even need to know or understand the law (although they really should). They just need to read the few lines of text that comprise my license.
No; how is that even relevant? As long as that individual isn't redistributing my addon, I don't care, and would have no legal standing even if I did care.
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Curse PremiumAre you just arguing to argue or does this actually have a point? All I see is you comparing apples to oranges.
What needs to be done is that web sites do something like was mentioned before, where a compilation author picks out the addons he's using and lists them, whether it be XML, a selected list, or whatever. The hosting site then packages those addons into a big zip for the user. Additionally, an author should be able to opt out of compilation inclusion.
There's a ton of problems with the current implementation...
Etc, etc... A solution like was mentioned would address all of those if implemented correctly.