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Im sorry, i have to laugh at you people that get flustered and pissy about 3 vocal people on the forums that are talking about a user base that deserve the abuse for being stupid. These are the kind of people that call the highway patrol because they got a flat tire, expecting them to be responsible in fixing the flat tire, when infact they need to talk to a mechanic and leave the highway patrol out of it.
Quite frankly if your not smart enough to use the search box or look though a the last 2 pages of an addon thread, then ask a pointed question == you deserve the flaming. But alas, this is a small minority that also happens to be extrordanarily vocal and suffering from 'entitlement' effects.
I got no feelings for them. However, fact remains, we have moved, we're not going back, enough. No amount of opinion is going to change that. Be part of the soloution or move on.
Sorry Orion/Arrow/Indy, you're not in charge of the community here, Kaelten is, and you're just as guilty at suffering from entitlement effects. Please see my new sig :p
If all you can do is flame people instead of being constructive, then please just don't post. It's not helping anything, seriously, and I'm getting way more sick and tired of your trolling than of the clueless posts. WAY more.
Both sides have valid points, both sides seem to simply not understand the opposite properly.
Yes, we do want "new" developers and "new" users. Everyone has to start somewhere, right? But there is a limit to that. There is that kind of user that no one ever wants. Kaelten mentions those users too, and those users are the group Arrow and tek target in their comments.
If you truly believe that we should accept those users too, i'm sorry, but even quoting Kaeltens comments won't make it so, at least not in our minds.
WoWAce was started as a small and quite place for developers to discuss and plan their new addons, and not as a distribution platform. That is indeed a fact.
It matured to one of the biggest WoW Addon Communitys on the net, and you know Software Devs, we're all lazy. So we wrote us an Updater. That Updater, how sad it sounds, "destroyed" the small community we build for us devs, and lured alot of users, just because it was so simple and easy to use (and even worse, it lured some devs that just joined our WoWAce Boat to get on the updater, not for the community)
You cannot blame the devs that miss these days, and would rather go back.
We've always been thinking how we can improve the community, seperate the users and the devs a bit again, not completly of course, we still need the feedback and all, but just offer better tools to interface the users with the devs, afterall the people running this place are devs, too.
What came of that, is what we have today. We still have our forums for all the discussions, but additionally we have an awesome page where we can really "Release" addons with just 2 Clicks, where we can provide proper descriptions, FAQs, Guides and whatnot, and where users can submit Bugreports in Tickets to help improve the addons.
Please, both the users and devs, try to accept the other side.
I'm a dev by heart myself, and i understand you all. You want your quite place back, where you only got quality feedback because the other people there were devs too, you don't want to spend time filtering feedback.
Yet i do understand the users, you want to help with the addons, give feedback and help to squish bugs that annoy you, too.
Devs could work without the users, but the addons probably wouldn't be what they are today, so continue to provide the valuable feedback that you've always given.
But please, also keep a certain level of respect for the Devs. Some may just choose to ignore your feedback, or give you a hard time if your feedback is not helpful or inaccurate. We do spend a lot of time on our addons, and i doubt any author would disregard any feedback thats really thought through.
For example, while I'm totally rewriting my addon, i probably don't want feedback (yet), or hear how its broken every 5 minutes, and after some time, responses do get harsh (I remember that TinyTip thread), especially if that certain kind of users appear again, but once i'm done, its all on the table again, and i'm open for suggestions and improvements.
No-one ever intended to generalize the "bad" users onto all users/testers that visit this forums. If it happend, it probably came out totally wrong, or you understood wrong, both happen all the time, don't take it too personally.
Please, keep this Forums clean from the flame, or i'll have to lock some stuff before it gets out of hand, and i really don't want to do that, because a lot of constructive ideas are in here too.
Thanks Nev for clearing that up. I think it's only fair to clarify that I'm not advocating either Tek's or Arrowmaster's stance because I have an inherent hate towards users, so to speak. I can understand however (or at least try to) that they feel very strongly in certain cases due to past bad experience. It's a human reaction, as it is equally human for the other side to "fight back". As long as everything is kept within reasonable limits, I believe that it ultimately helps the 2 groups to understand each other. Fact remains that everyone has had his own experiences, pleasant or otherwise with both groups since let's face it, even developers are users, when it comes to addons they haven't written themselves and in my book should be expected to display the same courtesy they expect (?) from their own users.
Nev, thanks for trying to be a voice of reason for the devs. I completely understand that the wowace community started as something different, but I also accept that it has grown into something else - something that can be better for everyone if approached with an open mind.
But just because part of the new direction of the site may include a desire to filter out some of the noise doesn't mean that it's suddenly open season to flame all the noobs that stop by asking for help or wondering why everything changed all of a sudden.
Or maybe I'm wrong in thinking that, in which case please let me know and I'll be the first to walk out the door and leave you all to your work of dismantling the current heart of the community, because I have no interest in watching it devolve into some kind of openly user-hostile elitist developer circle-jerk.
Well i was one who posted on WOWI that it seemed users weren't wanted here, i wasn't upset about it, just didn't want to rock the boat if that was the case. I been with the site a long time, just havn't posted all that much.
I came here as a user, i remember getting hooked on mods way back when i think cosmos was the big thing, then i moved on to the insomniax package...then started doing my own thing, finding fun mods and messing with them, i wanted to know how they worked so i read peoples posts here, Rownes and so forth.
I still can't get the hang of making mods, just don't have the mental ability for it i guess, but i can edit them to do things i want them to do..least i got that far in understanding the lua stuff.
I know the original intention of this site, one reason i wanted to learn about the mods was so i didn't have to bother the devs with problems, i wanted to fix them myself like i do with everything else in my life hehe...i actually taught all my guildies and others how to handle their mods better, and currently even though i don't much care for the curse updater, i have been showing people how to use it without the troubles others are haveing..Anyways i'm just babbling now...let's just stop fighting i understand the other side better now so i feel much better about the subject.
Sorry if i misunderstood some of the devs feelings here.
well my big post of elloquence was lost due to a white page....
I've since dug into the plugin and rewrote the login logic. It better damn'd be fixed this time.
I understand everyones emotions on the subject. Both the sides have valid points. I'll reiterate my statement though. Its the users who don't care and don't want to improve their knowledge understanding that bug me personally.
I know not everyone is able to figure things out. But I think that for the overall community we should all try to help each other. I know I'd not be half the developer I am today (if thats a good thing to be proud of?) if it wasn't for the help ideas and criticisms given to me by all of you.
So please guys, lets all let the fires drop some. We need to grow as a group and a community, and part of that is new blood and new ideas.
For me there really is only one issue I feel strongly about in this discussion: Getting hostile on anybody isn't OK.
When the whole getting rid of "normal" users, they don't belong (seerah) mean dwagons eat "normal" users (tek) and flame certain types of users (arrow) came up, that's when I spoke. Also because in my view in the past people who simply didn't deserve harsh treatments did get some. Even devs! (folks getting hackled for not liking to be on IRC or for not providing valid emails in their TOCs, or for having a different opinion what warrants a library, just to name a few)
That - is my only gripe with the wowace community and I've been speaking up about it whenever I felt things were going wrong, or trying other paths to point out what I observed as happening.
If I read Nev and Kaelten correctly then the policy is clear: hostility such as flaming is not OK.
Great. That's all I was hoping to get out of the discussion. I couldn't be happier if I never had to verbalize my discontent about this again.
In my mind everybody is entitled to their opinion, but noone is entitled to be nasty or controlling about it.
If a user is entitlement-crazed I have all sympathy that there is an issue, same for a dev who feels that her particular views on <blank> must be accepted as truism by everybody and dissent is subject to flames or ridicule, then that's also an issue.
If something goes pear shaped there are good and productive ways to handle them. Ignoring, reporting, or just being able to agree to disagree are among those that work.
For me there really is only one issue I feel strongly about in this discussion: Getting hostile on anybody isn't OK.
When the whole getting rid of "normal" users, they don't belong (seerah) mean dwagons eat "normal" users (tek) and flame certain types of users (arrow) came up, that's when I spoke. Also because in my view in the past people who simply didn't deserve harsh treatments did get some. Even devs! (folks getting hackled for not liking to be on IRC or for not providing valid emails in their TOCs, or for having a different opinion what warrants a library, just to name a few)
That - is my only gripe with the wowace community and I've been speaking up about it whenever I felt things were going wrong, or trying other paths to point out what I observed as happening.
If I read Nev and Kaelten correctly then the policy is clear: hostility such as flaming is not OK.
Great. That's all I was hoping to get out of the discussion. I couldn't be happier if I never had to verbalize my discontent about this again.
In my mind everybody is entitled to their opinion, but noone is entitled to be nasty or controlling about it.
If a user is entitlement-crazed I have all sympathy that there is an issue, same for a dev who feels that her particular views on <blank> must be accepted as truism by everybody and dissent is subject to flames or ridicule, then that's also an issue.
If something goes pear shaped there are good and productive ways to handle them. Ignoring, reporting, or just being able to agree to disagree are among those that work.
I do agree.
I've been known to rip into people from time to time. But generally its because I'm talking decisively and hope to shed any issues of ambiguity.
In all honesty, that second group of users never belonged on wowace in the first place. It was never ever meant as a release site, and wasn't built that way.
My understanding is that you say that people who feel that addons are distributed here and come here with that understanding are not welcome here. If I misunderstood I'd be happy to hear what you meant. But again, we can take that offline if that's a more productive way of clarifying this.
I for one welcome any users, also those that come here for release addons. Am I entitled to that view or will I be shouted down and harrassed over that? You worded it as truism. I took issue with it. If that's a matter of wording we surely can get beyond it.
Seerah, I didn't mean to take your comments out of context at all, sorry if it can be read that way. We can talk the discussion offline if you want or let it be right here.
But I think I have been clear. I have no issue with anybody holding an opinion, whether it's that wowace ought to not be doing releases at all (a point that indy has argued forcefully in the past) or that some people should be flamed. I hold issue with the hostility and that it's expressed to hold for all of us, and that dissenters have to brace for some flaming or troll baiting.
I use wowace among many things as distribution site and welcome any well-mannered poster independent of their preconceptions. Anybody is fine to disagree with that, but just drop the hostility please.
I think the truth is somewhat in the middle. We have and always will welcome anyone who is willing to come here and learn. I'll even welcome people who for whatever reason are not able to grow, as long as they don't go out of their way to be a counter productive community member.
There however is a class of users that feel entitled, don't care for, nor respect the people who put so much into this site, these addons, and the UI Community overall.
An example of that user would be the type that uses WowMatrix. Some of those people do it because they don't know better and think it does no harm. However, after people go out of their way to educate people why WowMatrix is evil and hurtful to the community and the various sites and then those now educated people still willfully hurt the entire UI community and the sites that act as its pillars they become a class apart.
It is that final class of users that I would be just as happy if they never graced us with their presence. (No I'm not talking about just wowmatrix users but that type of user.)
So are users welcomed here? Absolutely.
Are ALL users welcomed here. Absolutely not.
Who decided who's welcomed here and who is not? Me, ultimately.
Wowace started with just a forum and a few static pages. No one remembers those days though ;)
I remember it as well :p I discovered WoWAce via CosmosUI, and slowly followed and migrated over. What made fueled my migration even more was because I don't like CTMod, and Ace provides very good alternatives.
Now, Ace is not "alternatives" to those mods anymore, Ace is the leading the trend.
Now, Ace is not "alternatives" to those mods anymore, Ace is the leading the trend.
It's odd that you say that..
In the Ace3 License it says
Neither the name of the Ace3 Development Team nor the names of its contributors
may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software without
specific prior written permission.
Then again i guess you can't fight the mob w/o violence.
The names of the people, not that of the library itself.
I find _that_ usage highly annoying and misleading, though, because an aberration of an addon that happens to use the Ace framework is not a superior product by virtue of that fact.
Unfortunately, there are many end-users who are confused on this issue and religiously download anything with a name like "AddonAce" or "AceAssistant" and are comforted by seeing a colored -Ace- next to the name of their addon when viewing their addon list in-game. This, in turn, leads many naive addon authors to "make it Ace!" in cases where it is completely unnecessary to - turning a 30-line addon into a much larger one with the embedded libraries which they didn't need in the first place.
The names of the people, not that of the library itself.
I find _that_ usage highly annoying and misleading, though, because an aberration of an addon that happens to use the Ace framework is not a superior product by virtue of that fact.
Unfortunately, there are many end-users who are confused on this issue and religiously download anything with a name like "AddonAce" or "AceAssistant" and are comforted by seeing a colored -Ace- next to the name of their addon when viewing their addon list in-game. This, in turn, leads many naive addon authors to "make it Ace!" in cases where it is completely unnecessary to - turning a 30-line addon into a much larger one with the embedded libraries which they didn't need in the first place.
IMO, it is based on the user. In my experience, that's how it was, since at that time I was playing WoW with 512mb only and I have to care a lot about alot of things like keeping the memory light, avoiding plenty of bugs (there are less bugs using Ace that time compared to others), etc. Since having a low-end PC means I have to wait long while the addons are getting fired up after logging-in.
When I moved to Ace, it definitely was "better" than the addons I came from. Yes, many will argue that Ace doesn't really or is not any better than the other addons. Many will argue that Ace is not the reason for low memory usage. But, as a user who was using a low-end PC during the early days, Ace did it.
So in my PoV, Ace is leading the trend, even though I agree to the points made above and in the past of what Ace isn't. There are two sides in this, the technical side where the code tells us there really isn't any significant improvements versus other libs or addons (or license); vs an actual user experience.
IMO, both are correct.
It is no different than the infamous XP tweak about "QoS 20% Bandwidth Gain". Technically speaking, it is a false tweak as clearly stated by Microsoft, but to some people, by experience it made a difference, even though the underlying code doesn't tell us so. (And I am completely against that tweak.)
Now I have a better machine, 2gb memory, etc. I care less now about those stuff, it is now simply just being bias towards Ace and to convince in one go the non-addon users to use only Ace/Rock/tek based addons they can find in UI sites, again, just being bias.
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Curse PremiumQuite frankly if your not smart enough to use the search box or look though a the last 2 pages of an addon thread, then ask a pointed question == you deserve the flaming. But alas, this is a small minority that also happens to be extrordanarily vocal and suffering from 'entitlement' effects.
I got no feelings for them. However, fact remains, we have moved, we're not going back, enough. No amount of opinion is going to change that. Be part of the soloution or move on.
If all you can do is flame people instead of being constructive, then please just don't post. It's not helping anything, seriously, and I'm getting way more sick and tired of your trolling than of the clueless posts. WAY more.
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Forum ModeratorBoth sides have valid points, both sides seem to simply not understand the opposite properly.
Yes, we do want "new" developers and "new" users. Everyone has to start somewhere, right? But there is a limit to that. There is that kind of user that no one ever wants. Kaelten mentions those users too, and those users are the group Arrow and tek target in their comments.
If you truly believe that we should accept those users too, i'm sorry, but even quoting Kaeltens comments won't make it so, at least not in our minds.
WoWAce was started as a small and quite place for developers to discuss and plan their new addons, and not as a distribution platform. That is indeed a fact.
It matured to one of the biggest WoW Addon Communitys on the net, and you know Software Devs, we're all lazy. So we wrote us an Updater. That Updater, how sad it sounds, "destroyed" the small community we build for us devs, and lured alot of users, just because it was so simple and easy to use (and even worse, it lured some devs that just joined our WoWAce Boat to get on the updater, not for the community)
You cannot blame the devs that miss these days, and would rather go back.
We've always been thinking how we can improve the community, seperate the users and the devs a bit again, not completly of course, we still need the feedback and all, but just offer better tools to interface the users with the devs, afterall the people running this place are devs, too.
What came of that, is what we have today. We still have our forums for all the discussions, but additionally we have an awesome page where we can really "Release" addons with just 2 Clicks, where we can provide proper descriptions, FAQs, Guides and whatnot, and where users can submit Bugreports in Tickets to help improve the addons.
Please, both the users and devs, try to accept the other side.
I'm a dev by heart myself, and i understand you all. You want your quite place back, where you only got quality feedback because the other people there were devs too, you don't want to spend time filtering feedback.
Yet i do understand the users, you want to help with the addons, give feedback and help to squish bugs that annoy you, too.
Devs could work without the users, but the addons probably wouldn't be what they are today, so continue to provide the valuable feedback that you've always given.
But please, also keep a certain level of respect for the Devs. Some may just choose to ignore your feedback, or give you a hard time if your feedback is not helpful or inaccurate. We do spend a lot of time on our addons, and i doubt any author would disregard any feedback thats really thought through.
For example, while I'm totally rewriting my addon, i probably don't want feedback (yet), or hear how its broken every 5 minutes, and after some time, responses do get harsh (I remember that TinyTip thread), especially if that certain kind of users appear again, but once i'm done, its all on the table again, and i'm open for suggestions and improvements.
No-one ever intended to generalize the "bad" users onto all users/testers that visit this forums. If it happend, it probably came out totally wrong, or you understood wrong, both happen all the time, don't take it too personally.
Please, keep this Forums clean from the flame, or i'll have to lock some stuff before it gets out of hand, and i really don't want to do that, because a lot of constructive ideas are in here too.
tl;dr
But just because part of the new direction of the site may include a desire to filter out some of the noise doesn't mean that it's suddenly open season to flame all the noobs that stop by asking for help or wondering why everything changed all of a sudden.
Or maybe I'm wrong in thinking that, in which case please let me know and I'll be the first to walk out the door and leave you all to your work of dismantling the current heart of the community, because I have no interest in watching it devolve into some kind of openly user-hostile elitist developer circle-jerk.
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Forum ModeratorRather ignore people, if you don't want to help them, or just link them to the FAQs we posted without much words.
I came here as a user, i remember getting hooked on mods way back when i think cosmos was the big thing, then i moved on to the insomniax package...then started doing my own thing, finding fun mods and messing with them, i wanted to know how they worked so i read peoples posts here, Rownes and so forth.
I still can't get the hang of making mods, just don't have the mental ability for it i guess, but i can edit them to do things i want them to do..least i got that far in understanding the lua stuff.
I know the original intention of this site, one reason i wanted to learn about the mods was so i didn't have to bother the devs with problems, i wanted to fix them myself like i do with everything else in my life hehe...i actually taught all my guildies and others how to handle their mods better, and currently even though i don't much care for the curse updater, i have been showing people how to use it without the troubles others are haveing..Anyways i'm just babbling now...let's just stop fighting i understand the other side better now so i feel much better about the subject.
Sorry if i misunderstood some of the devs feelings here.
I've since dug into the plugin and rewrote the login logic. It better damn'd be fixed this time.
I understand everyones emotions on the subject. Both the sides have valid points. I'll reiterate my statement though. Its the users who don't care and don't want to improve their knowledge understanding that bug me personally.
I know not everyone is able to figure things out. But I think that for the overall community we should all try to help each other. I know I'd not be half the developer I am today (if thats a good thing to be proud of?) if it wasn't for the help ideas and criticisms given to me by all of you.
So please guys, lets all let the fires drop some. We need to grow as a group and a community, and part of that is new blood and new ideas.
When the whole getting rid of "normal" users, they don't belong (seerah) mean dwagons eat "normal" users (tek) and flame certain types of users (arrow) came up, that's when I spoke. Also because in my view in the past people who simply didn't deserve harsh treatments did get some. Even devs! (folks getting hackled for not liking to be on IRC or for not providing valid emails in their TOCs, or for having a different opinion what warrants a library, just to name a few)
That - is my only gripe with the wowace community and I've been speaking up about it whenever I felt things were going wrong, or trying other paths to point out what I observed as happening.
If I read Nev and Kaelten correctly then the policy is clear: hostility such as flaming is not OK.
Great. That's all I was hoping to get out of the discussion. I couldn't be happier if I never had to verbalize my discontent about this again.
In my mind everybody is entitled to their opinion, but noone is entitled to be nasty or controlling about it.
If a user is entitlement-crazed I have all sympathy that there is an issue, same for a dev who feels that her particular views on <blank> must be accepted as truism by everybody and dissent is subject to flames or ridicule, then that's also an issue.
If something goes pear shaped there are good and productive ways to handle them. Ignoring, reporting, or just being able to agree to disagree are among those that work.
I do agree.
I've been known to rip into people from time to time. But generally its because I'm talking decisively and hope to shed any issues of ambiguity.
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Curse PremiumMy understanding is that you say that people who feel that addons are distributed here and come here with that understanding are not welcome here. If I misunderstood I'd be happy to hear what you meant. But again, we can take that offline if that's a more productive way of clarifying this.
I for one welcome any users, also those that come here for release addons. Am I entitled to that view or will I be shouted down and harrassed over that? You worded it as truism. I took issue with it. If that's a matter of wording we surely can get beyond it.
Seerah, I didn't mean to take your comments out of context at all, sorry if it can be read that way. We can talk the discussion offline if you want or let it be right here.
But I think I have been clear. I have no issue with anybody holding an opinion, whether it's that wowace ought to not be doing releases at all (a point that indy has argued forcefully in the past) or that some people should be flamed. I hold issue with the hostility and that it's expressed to hold for all of us, and that dissenters have to brace for some flaming or troll baiting.
I use wowace among many things as distribution site and welcome any well-mannered poster independent of their preconceptions. Anybody is fine to disagree with that, but just drop the hostility please.
I think the truth is somewhat in the middle. We have and always will welcome anyone who is willing to come here and learn. I'll even welcome people who for whatever reason are not able to grow, as long as they don't go out of their way to be a counter productive community member.
There however is a class of users that feel entitled, don't care for, nor respect the people who put so much into this site, these addons, and the UI Community overall.
An example of that user would be the type that uses WowMatrix. Some of those people do it because they don't know better and think it does no harm. However, after people go out of their way to educate people why WowMatrix is evil and hurtful to the community and the various sites and then those now educated people still willfully hurt the entire UI community and the sites that act as its pillars they become a class apart.
It is that final class of users that I would be just as happy if they never graced us with their presence. (No I'm not talking about just wowmatrix users but that type of user.)
So are users welcomed here? Absolutely.
Are ALL users welcomed here. Absolutely not.
Who decided who's welcomed here and who is not? Me, ultimately.
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Project AuthorWell, ever since you kicked the forum's ass and made it stop kicking us off...
I remember it as well :p I discovered WoWAce via CosmosUI, and slowly followed and migrated over. What made fueled my migration even more was because I don't like CTMod, and Ace provides very good alternatives.
Now, Ace is not "alternatives" to those mods anymore, Ace is the leading the trend.
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Curse PremiumIt's odd that you say that..
In the Ace3 License it says
Then again i guess you can't fight the mob w/o violence.
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Project AuthorThe names of the people, not that of the library itself.
I find _that_ usage highly annoying and misleading, though, because an aberration of an addon that happens to use the Ace framework is not a superior product by virtue of that fact.
Unfortunately, there are many end-users who are confused on this issue and religiously download anything with a name like "AddonAce" or "AceAssistant" and are comforted by seeing a colored -Ace- next to the name of their addon when viewing their addon list in-game. This, in turn, leads many naive addon authors to "make it Ace!" in cases where it is completely unnecessary to - turning a 30-line addon into a much larger one with the embedded libraries which they didn't need in the first place.
IMO, it is based on the user. In my experience, that's how it was, since at that time I was playing WoW with 512mb only and I have to care a lot about alot of things like keeping the memory light, avoiding plenty of bugs (there are less bugs using Ace that time compared to others), etc. Since having a low-end PC means I have to wait long while the addons are getting fired up after logging-in.
When I moved to Ace, it definitely was "better" than the addons I came from. Yes, many will argue that Ace doesn't really or is not any better than the other addons. Many will argue that Ace is not the reason for low memory usage. But, as a user who was using a low-end PC during the early days, Ace did it.
So in my PoV, Ace is leading the trend, even though I agree to the points made above and in the past of what Ace isn't. There are two sides in this, the technical side where the code tells us there really isn't any significant improvements versus other libs or addons (or license); vs an actual user experience.
IMO, both are correct.
It is no different than the infamous XP tweak about "QoS 20% Bandwidth Gain". Technically speaking, it is a false tweak as clearly stated by Microsoft, but to some people, by experience it made a difference, even though the underlying code doesn't tell us so. (And I am completely against that tweak.)
Now I have a better machine, 2gb memory, etc. I care less now about those stuff, it is now simply just being bias towards Ace and to convince in one go the non-addon users to use only Ace/Rock/tek based addons they can find in UI sites, again, just being bias.