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Seems I am just going to open my mouth again, remind me to push my foot in later on ;)
I write some addons, for myself - on my machine, 1. Because I don't feel any are good enough to be thrown into the public and 2. I don't wanna deal with "it broke omgzors fix it now. And at one point, I considered using Ace3 and Dongle for a few ideas I had. I started working on those addons, and was faced with the need for a toc. I did consider adding in - Dongle - but I didn't. Not because the authors asked it (I didn't even know to be honest, sorry), but because I failed to see what good it would do.
Someone's sig here is "An addon is only as good as the author who wrote it" or something like that. Does the tag matter? Hell, I could tag my addons as - Kinky - just for kicks, but it doesn't matter. If I wrote it good, then woot, if not - then fail.
Personally, if tagging must be controlled, set up a premade TOC file, that authors can use, supply it in the Ace3 libs. But banning the use of certain things, might cripple the community more than it would benefit the community. And the entire convo on purging all addons of which the authors aren't in IRC, made me a sad panda. Not every addon dev loves to hang out in IRC, personally I like IRC, but I can't get any damn work done because I keep on checking, which admittedly is my own self-discipline problem, but it's why I don't go to IRC a lot.
I find it a little amusing that the people that appear to be the most adamant about these recent "radical ideas" (ban this, delete that) don't even write Ace2/3 addons currently...
I find it a little amusing that the people that appear to be the most adamant about these recent "radical ideas" (ban this, delete that) don't even write Ace2/3 addons currently...
I did say I didn't write them, I just offered an outsiders opinion :) I am all for getting rid of the "ACE this so it's uberleet", but I am not sure if that will ever work out. I've seen a few posts where people actually asked for an Ace'd version of an addon that was already written on the Ace2 framework.
I just don't see a solution that will please both devs, users and admins. But at some point, some form of cutoff or whatever will have to occur, otherwise the servers will get loaded with crap addons that are no longer maintained.
My opposition to a rainbow of framework "brand" tags in TOC titles has less to do with the misconception of unity (i.e. "all -Ace2- addons are better than non-Ace2- addons because they use -Ace2-") it promotes, but with the visual annoyance. It's annoying to have stupid colored crap cluttering up the addon listing and in-game addon management tools. And like I said earlier in this thread, it looks pretty dumb when you log into a new character and see:
Quartz -Ace2-: You have not selected a spell for the Global Cooldown module...
What does -Ace2- have to do with that message? Absolutely nothing.
Quote from Grayhoof »
I find it a little amusing that the people that appear to be the most adamant about these recent "radical ideas" (ban this, delete that) don't even write Ace2/3 addons currently...
Personally I've been moving away from using -Ace2- because it's massive overkill to add 200kb of libraries to a 10kb addon just to simplify configuration. But my addons which do currently use -Ace2- do not include an -Ace2- tag in the TOC, and I mention -Ace2- on their release site download pages only because I got tired of ignorant morons asking me to -Ace2- my addon, or asking on other places if there was an -Ace2- alternative to my addon, when it already used -Ace2-. :P
Personally I've been moving away from using -Ace2- because it's massive overkill to add 200kb of libraries to a 10kb addon just to simplify configuration. But my addons which do currently use -Ace2- do not include an -Ace2- tag in the TOC, and I mention -Ace2- on their release site download pages only because I got tired of ignorant morons asking me to -Ace2- my addon, or asking on other places if there was an -Ace2- alternative to my addon, when it already used -Ace2-. :P
See that's an issue, the branding caused this trend (IMHO), where people when not faced with that oh-so-colorful-and-yes-annoying -Ace2- tag, ask for a mod to be Ace'd when it already is. That would be one of the reason why the branding could be a good thing, but I agree with the color and chat message annoyance. If it wouldn't be colored and excluded from <name>:error message etc I could live with it easily. Just shove it in the description as consensus?
I think if "this addon uses <framework>" belongs anywhere, it's in an extended description on a download page. It doesn't belong in the title, which is intended to contain only the addon's title. The TOC Notes field is intended to contain a very brief description of the addon's function, and also (I think) inappropriate for functionally irrelevant information like what embeddable libraries the addon uses. That's what the OptDeps field is for.
For example, the download page on WoWI for my chat addon states something like "This addon already uses Ace2 embedded libraries, so stop making idiotic posts on forums asking for it to be 'Aced'. Thanks." and in-game there is no mention anywhere of Ace2. Maybe this doesn't encourage mass downloading and viral marketing of my addon, but that's fine with me.
Speaking of branding, I saw someone mention Curse earlier, but I actually find WoWInterface to be worse, with their entire site segregated between "Ace" and "Standalone", with nearly identical functional categories in each section. :(
I find it a little amusing that the people that appear to be the most adamant about these recent "radical ideas" (ban this, delete that) don't even write Ace2/3 addons currently...
Basically, unless someone has abused a drug they shouldn't be allowed to say it's bad for you and you shouldn't do it? Rightttttttttttttt, "You can't comment unless you've done this" is an absurd argument/comment.
*More snip*
Personally, if tagging must be controlled, set up a premade TOC file, that authors can use, supply it in the Ace3 libs. But banning the use of certain things, might cripple the community more than it would benefit the community. And the entire convo on purging all addons of which the authors aren't in IRC, made me a sad panda. Not every addon dev loves to hang out in IRC, personally I like IRC, but I can't get any damn work done because I keep on checking, which admittedly is my own self-discipline problem, but it's why I don't go to IRC a lot.
*More snip again*
Indie was just in an emo-angry mood, you could probably ignore his posts from the last few days. But I assume you mean, banning use of SVN unless you're on IRC would cripple it, not banning the use of "-Ace#-"?
I really think everyone here is futilely preaching the the choir here. I don't see many (any?) posts saying tagging is a good thing. Banning the tags likely won't accomplish anything, though.
I really think everyone here is futilely preaching the the choir here. I don't see many (any?) posts saying tagging is a good thing. Banning the tags likely won't accomplish anything, though.
Well it depends, if you can actually get the community behind the idea that tagging is bad then the issue solves itself, think of it as the people who ask you to Ace2 but in reverse if users see an addon with the tag then pointing out that it's frowned on is going to help unless the authors bought into the whole, libraries r gud view.
I have a rather easy way to settle this problem... and it's rather the ugly card for the Admin to play.
"Ace" being a brand name is also a Open Source Project, as such it IS their right to regulate the use of the name and it's use in branding anything.
If your not part of the Ace Dev Team, you don't have the right to use any sort of -Ace*- Branding with out permission of the project lead. TBH the only addons that should be tag'ed -Ace*- are addons like BigWigs, oRA2, and other addons as developed by authors on the Ace Dev Team... and they prolly wont do this anyways but it's besides the point...
AH the rambling this thread has become. Enough already!
Someone with "visual talents" want to make an Ace3 logo we could use for the site favicon and on config panels for Ace3 addons? Like say the old logo (a spade with an "A" in it) with a cubed 3 maybe?
After we have that, just bitch out anyone that does a TOC tag to use this instead. Simple enough.
How about the icon I made for WAU? It's around here somewhere, and I have it on my home computer... I could add a 3 to that, or it could be left as just an Ace of spades. (otherwise, we'd have to come up with a new logo for Ace4)
It may be kinda sad but I like the idea of the little 3 superscript. if its done in something that remembers the layers (psd?) it can be edited in the future very easily.
Was just thinking it'd probably be easy to make, it's simple but clear. Super minimalistic, something someone could throw in the corner of their config GUI with a little hover tooltip on it. Would be much more elegant than a TOC tag.
Basically, unless someone has abused a drug they shouldn't be allowed to say it's bad for you and you shouldn't do it? Rightttttttttttttt, "You can't comment unless you've done this" is an absurd argument/comment.
Way to read WAY too much into something I simply found amusing...
When I first got into addons I primarily used curse and wowinterface, trying dozens of different variants and choosing my favorite of similar mods. Over time I started noticing that 70-80% of the mods I ended up choosing were Ace branded. These mods all worked very well together and many shared a common configuration interface thru what I would later discover was the rock interface.
The branding was what led me, as an end user, to this site, where I found many more MAINTAINED addons which have all served to improve my game sessions to some extent. And while the Ace framework does not ensure the addon code is quality, since it is a community effort, there is a much higher chance the framework code is higher quality, and addons that would otherwise go out of date can actually be maintained via framework updates that are made anyway due to game changes, and the outdated mod that interfaces primarily with the framework will continue to work where as a standalone mod may be broken quickly.
Yes, "Aced" mods are not guaranteed to be excellent, however due to code reuse, framework maintenance, and community, as an end user, the odds are stacked in my favor that it will be higher quality than a standalone version, and it's practically guaranteed that it will interoperate with my other mods without conflict.
I can understand not wanting to create a sense that Ace3 mods > Ace2 mods since in many ways it's currently a matter of preference, but as an end user I ask and recommend you keep some sort branding to help new users find their way here, because quite frankly the ratio of good to crap Ace addons is a lot higher than the stand alone addons.
In closing, my recommended tagline:
Ace brand addons: We don't guarantee quality, but we probably do suck less.
I write some addons, for myself - on my machine, 1. Because I don't feel any are good enough to be thrown into the public and 2. I don't wanna deal with "it broke omgzors fix it now. And at one point, I considered using Ace3 and Dongle for a few ideas I had. I started working on those addons, and was faced with the need for a toc. I did consider adding in - Dongle - but I didn't. Not because the authors asked it (I didn't even know to be honest, sorry), but because I failed to see what good it would do.
Someone's sig here is "An addon is only as good as the author who wrote it" or something like that. Does the tag matter? Hell, I could tag my addons as - Kinky - just for kicks, but it doesn't matter. If I wrote it good, then woot, if not - then fail.
Personally, if tagging must be controlled, set up a premade TOC file, that authors can use, supply it in the Ace3 libs. But banning the use of certain things, might cripple the community more than it would benefit the community. And the entire convo on purging all addons of which the authors aren't in IRC, made me a sad panda. Not every addon dev loves to hang out in IRC, personally I like IRC, but I can't get any damn work done because I keep on checking, which admittedly is my own self-discipline problem, but it's why I don't go to IRC a lot.
Meh, I'll go with the foot in mouth thing now.
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Curse PremiumI did say I didn't write them, I just offered an outsiders opinion :) I am all for getting rid of the "ACE this so it's uberleet", but I am not sure if that will ever work out. I've seen a few posts where people actually asked for an Ace'd version of an addon that was already written on the Ace2 framework.
I just don't see a solution that will please both devs, users and admins. But at some point, some form of cutoff or whatever will have to occur, otherwise the servers will get loaded with crap addons that are no longer maintained.
Quartz -Ace2-: You have not selected a spell for the Global Cooldown module...
What does -Ace2- have to do with that message? Absolutely nothing.
Personally I've been moving away from using -Ace2- because it's massive overkill to add 200kb of libraries to a 10kb addon just to simplify configuration. But my addons which do currently use -Ace2- do not include an -Ace2- tag in the TOC, and I mention -Ace2- on their release site download pages only because I got tired of ignorant morons asking me to -Ace2- my addon, or asking on other places if there was an -Ace2- alternative to my addon, when it already used -Ace2-. :P
See that's an issue, the branding caused this trend (IMHO), where people when not faced with that oh-so-colorful-and-yes-annoying -Ace2- tag, ask for a mod to be Ace'd when it already is. That would be one of the reason why the branding could be a good thing, but I agree with the color and chat message annoyance. If it wouldn't be colored and excluded from <name>:error message etc I could live with it easily. Just shove it in the description as consensus?
For example, the download page on WoWI for my chat addon states something like "This addon already uses Ace2 embedded libraries, so stop making idiotic posts on forums asking for it to be 'Aced'. Thanks." and in-game there is no mention anywhere of Ace2. Maybe this doesn't encourage mass downloading and viral marketing of my addon, but that's fine with me.
Speaking of branding, I saw someone mention Curse earlier, but I actually find WoWInterface to be worse, with their entire site segregated between "Ace" and "Standalone", with nearly identical functional categories in each section. :(
Basically, unless someone has abused a drug they shouldn't be allowed to say it's bad for you and you shouldn't do it? Rightttttttttttttt, "You can't comment unless you've done this" is an absurd argument/comment.
Indie was just in an emo-angry mood, you could probably ignore his posts from the last few days. But I assume you mean, banning use of SVN unless you're on IRC would cripple it, not banning the use of "-Ace#-"?
Well it depends, if you can actually get the community behind the idea that tagging is bad then the issue solves itself, think of it as the people who ask you to Ace2 but in reverse if users see an addon with the tag then pointing out that it's frowned on is going to help unless the authors bought into the whole, libraries r gud view.
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Curse Premium"Ace" being a brand name is also a Open Source Project, as such it IS their right to regulate the use of the name and it's use in branding anything.
If your not part of the Ace Dev Team, you don't have the right to use any sort of -Ace*- Branding with out permission of the project lead. TBH the only addons that should be tag'ed -Ace*- are addons like BigWigs, oRA2, and other addons as developed by authors on the Ace Dev Team... and they prolly wont do this anyways but it's besides the point...
I'll at least give them that respect.
Someone with "visual talents" want to make an Ace3 logo we could use for the site favicon and on config panels for Ace3 addons? Like say the old logo (a spade with an "A" in it) with a cubed 3 maybe?
After we have that, just bitch out anyone that does a TOC tag to use this instead. Simple enough.
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Curse Premiumit's got my vote :D
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Curse PremiumWas just thinking it'd probably be easy to make, it's simple but clear. Super minimalistic, something someone could throw in the corner of their config GUI with a little hover tooltip on it. Would be much more elegant than a TOC tag.
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Curse PremiumWay to read WAY too much into something I simply found amusing...
Ace's are high?
When I first got into addons I primarily used curse and wowinterface, trying dozens of different variants and choosing my favorite of similar mods. Over time I started noticing that 70-80% of the mods I ended up choosing were Ace branded. These mods all worked very well together and many shared a common configuration interface thru what I would later discover was the rock interface.
The branding was what led me, as an end user, to this site, where I found many more MAINTAINED addons which have all served to improve my game sessions to some extent. And while the Ace framework does not ensure the addon code is quality, since it is a community effort, there is a much higher chance the framework code is higher quality, and addons that would otherwise go out of date can actually be maintained via framework updates that are made anyway due to game changes, and the outdated mod that interfaces primarily with the framework will continue to work where as a standalone mod may be broken quickly.
Yes, "Aced" mods are not guaranteed to be excellent, however due to code reuse, framework maintenance, and community, as an end user, the odds are stacked in my favor that it will be higher quality than a standalone version, and it's practically guaranteed that it will interoperate with my other mods without conflict.
I can understand not wanting to create a sense that Ace3 mods > Ace2 mods since in many ways it's currently a matter of preference, but as an end user I ask and recommend you keep some sort branding to help new users find their way here, because quite frankly the ratio of good to crap Ace addons is a lot higher than the stand alone addons.
In closing, my recommended tagline:
Ace brand addons: We don't guarantee quality, but we probably do suck less.
http://www.wowace.com/forums/index.php?topic=11529.0