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lol i totally borked that use of quotes :) point being seerah, is teachers never work lol just like preachers only work on sunday and play golf the rest of the week.
Anyone who's been in this project long enough knows that I've always vehemently detested the idea of the -Ace2- tag, and it was added to both Clique and PerfectRaid multiple times. I got sick of my addons being changed, zipped up automatically and being in the hands of my users before I could even get a chance to revert the change. The -Ace2- tag does bring a level of recognition to the project, but its just a matter of difference. Even if you removed it from in-game, you'd get the people who think ONLY ace addons come from WAU and if it's not on WAU its not an Ace addon.
The tag has no problems on its own, but combine it with users and it gets nasty =)
It seems to me your issue is with free-for-all commits on SVN rather than the -Ace2- tag? I see nothing wrong with the -Ace2- tag per se since the wowace.com admins by no means require any mods hosted here to carry that tag (right?). There's no requirement that to use svn.wowace.com and files.wowace.com, you must carry the -Ace2- tag, right? So it's entirely up to the author. Some authors I'm sure like the tag precisely because ignorant users flock to it thinking Ace2==good. Other authors like you think the Ace2 tag is offensive and choose not to include it. Your beef seems to be other developers comitting code to your project and sticking the tag in without your permission.
On the flip side, if a Dongle developer decides he wants to stick the -Dongle- tag on his mod, you have no problems with it, right? Just as long as nobody comes onto your Google SVN and sticks -Dongle- onto your mod.
On the flip side, if a Dongle developer decides he wants to stick the -Dongle- tag on his mod, you have no problems with it, right? Just as long as nobody comes onto your Google SVN and sticks -Dongle- onto your mod.
I think it really boils down to a matter of principal. Adding a -Anything- tag to your mod is just going to cause the (ignorant) end-users to care about something they shouldn't. NO ONE should tag their mods with the framework they choose to use. I'd personally like to see the current and future Ace2 mods start stripping the tags, I really wonder what the result would be...
Some authors I'm sure like the tag precisely because ignorant users flock to it thinking Ace2==good.
Some people -- and, imho, people with security and meaning issues -- latch onto symbols as if holding onto those symbols makes them better, cooler, smarter, wiser, more special than they really are. It irks me to absolutely no end when people go off on how "Ace mods are better" *sigh* It's either ignorance or arrogance and it's hard to tell which. Ace provides a good framework on which to write a well-written mod but, heh, it doesn't mean your code isn't bovine scatology in a bottle.
The only reason I identify my mods with Ace is so that folks like myself will look at two comparable mods and be able to say "gee, I've got 15 Ace mods, this one might give me better performance" or "gee, I run no Ace mods, this one will be more bloated than needed" if nothing else in terms of features swayed them. Pretty much my thinking pattern any more since I've wound up running so many mods that are on the Ace framework. Otherwise, it'd just be an incidental note offering credit where it's due.
Identifying the framework is as necessary as identifying that your iPod only works with iTunes because that little bit of infrastructure is rather useful knowledge. When someone told me about Omen I though "big deal, another threat mod" then "it tracks threat per mob" and I was all ears (ktm killed me that damn much) but when it came to "it's an Ace mod" here's what came to mind: Oh, sweet, it'll prolly hook into SharedMediaLib so I'm not stuck with some stupid bar texture I can't read and sounds I can't stand so on this particular subject I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree. Ace, Dongle, TokenRing, Ethernet...sometimes the guts are relevant.
And, as a side bonus, you watch people get up in arms about about "ace=good" or "ace=bloatware vs dongle=good"...well, it lets you know who's speaking wisely and who's kinda fixated.
Speaking from a tester/user/layman's perspective I know myself, and most of my friends, have greatly enjoyed the -Ace 2- tag for the simple fact that you then know where to go for help, to help, or what's it not. Before the -Ace 2- showed up we enjoyed being able to unclick Ace to see which addons were Ace, and which weren't, so we could see where to go for help, to help, or what's it not. You get the point. The "Fanbois" might exist, and a tiny slap in the face to call them back to earth is probably a good thing, but calling the -Ace 2- tag, or the Ace tag itself bad, speaks the opposite of what I've experienced. I haven't been delved deep in the whines, cries, and roars of fanboi-dom, so I can't speak from that perspective, but to an outsider that uses addons and can tell where they're coming from it's a huge boon. Also seeing how this community has gone from Rowne, Turan, Cladhaire, Tekkub and Kaelten as the visible posters and developers on this forum and community, to the massive plethora of people there is today, I've seen alot of good come out of the visible Ace-tag to gather developers and ideas.
The only reason I identify my mods with Ace is so that folks like myself will look at two comparable mods and be able to say "gee, I've got 15 Ace mods, this one might give me better performance" or "gee, I run no Ace mods, this one will be more bloated than needed" if nothing else in terms of features swayed them. Pretty much my thinking pattern any more since I've wound up running so many mods that are on the Ace framework. Otherwise, it'd just be an incidental note offering credit where it's due.
In this case sure, because Ace is too large to just "forget about" when you only have one Ace addon, but that's a problem specific to Ace at the moment.
Identifying the framework is as necessary as identifying that your iPod only works with iTunes because that little bit of infrastructure is rather useful knowledge. When someone told me about Omen I though "big deal, another threat mod" then "it tracks threat per mob" and I was all ears (ktm killed me that damn much) but when it came to "it's an Ace mod" here's what came to mind: Oh, sweet, it'll prolly hook into SharedMediaLib so I'm not stuck with some stupid bar texture I can't read and sounds I can't stand so on this particular subject I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree. Ace, Dongle, TokenRing, Ethernet...sometimes the guts are relevant.
Again, not an Ace thing. SharedMediaLib shoudln't even use Ace.. its stupid that it does. Any addon already can (and I'm sure do) hook into the library if users intend to use it.
The *only* reason stuff like this happens is because addons that have no need to be Ace, get Aced, and even worse, they don't get released to the general public. Sure, when you have a number of addons that are part of the "kool kids klub" you want to know what other ones are there.
Drastic differences in design decisions, that's all.
Again, not an Ace thing. SharedMediaLib shoudln't even use Ace.. its stupid that it does. Any addon already can (and I'm sure do) hook into the library if users intend to use it.
No, the problem is that it's only an Ace thing. Many Ace addons/authors use SharedMedia because most people in the Ace community know about it and it's a great library. The problem is that I don't think authors outside this site know that they have this powerful library available to them. Also, I think some nonAce authors are discouraged when they hear Ace being thrown around because Ace is a community and they are just one person. I believe we need to open the lines of communication and have this community spread out into other places to spread the wealth of knowledge (like the fact SharedMedia Exists) and creativity of this community.
Again, not an Ace thing. SharedMediaLib shoudln't even use Ace.. its stupid that it does. Any addon already can (and I'm sure do) hook into the library if users intend to use it.
No, the problem is that it's only an Ace thing. Many Ace addons/authors use SharedMedia because most people in the Ace community know about it and it's a great library. The problem is that I don't think authors outside this site know that they have this powerful library available to them. Also, I think some nonAce authors are discouraged when they hear Ace being thrown around because Ace is a community and they are just one person. I believe we need to open the lines of communication and have this community spread out into other places to spread the wealth of knowledge (like the fact SharedMedia Exists) and creativity of this community.
The only reason I identify my mods with Ace is so that folks like myself will look at two comparable mods and be able to say "gee, I've got 15 Ace mods, this one might give me better performance" or "gee, I run no Ace mods, this one will be more bloated than needed" if nothing else in terms of features swayed them. Pretty much my thinking pattern any more since I've wound up running so many mods that are on the Ace framework. Otherwise, it'd just be an incidental note offering credit where it's due.
People worry about performance far to much, it's something that authors should deal with if the user sees obvious performance issues then they should raise it with the author, but they should *never* think that it's better because you have 20 addons using Dongle or Ace. Even CPU numbers are inaccurate unless you know what you're doing, taking 0.5 seconds to cache something when you open the Auction House window is better then taking 0.55 seconds everytime you do something in the Auction House.
I've expounded on this elsewhere, but I think the *real* problem isn't the Ace2 tag. In fact, I find that tag useful. About a year ago, when I downloaded a compilation before becoming addicted to Discord, I had a horrible time updating some of the mods because I couldn't find where the hell they were hosted. Curse-gaming? wowinterface? ui.worldofwar.net? it was just a mess. Having the -Ace2- tag was meaningful, insofar as it showed me (the user) where I could get updates for the mod, and maybe find some community discussion about it.
I don't think the -Ace2- tag is even remotely close to the problem. I think THIS is the problem.
I've expounded on this elsewhere, but I think the *real* problem isn't the Ace2 tag. In fact, I find that tag useful. About a year ago, when I downloaded a compilation before becoming addicted to Discord, I had a horrible time updating some of the mods because I couldn't find where the hell they were hosted. Curse-gaming? wowinterface? ui.worldofwar.net? it was just a mess. Having the -Ace2- tag was meaningful, insofar as it showed me (the user) where I could get updates for the mod, and maybe find some community discussion about it.
I don't think the -Ace2- tag is even remotely close to the problem. I think THIS is the problem.
You know, the original discussion about this -Ace2- / Not -Ace2- tag thingie came from cladhaire saying people were adding it to his addons without his approval, and addons which did not even use Ace2!
Anyway, you could just add "Uses Ace2" to the Notes field, or if you really, really want something in the title, then -Wowace- would probably be more explicit for addons that are only supported on wowace.com.
You know, the original discussion about this -Ace2- / Not -Ace2- tag thingie came from cladhaire saying people were adding it to his addons without his approval, and addons which did not even use Ace2!
Anyway, you could just add "Uses Ace2" to the Notes field, or if you really, really want something in the title, then -Wowace- would probably be more explicit for addons that are only supported on wowace.com.
I realize that - the Ace2 tag was meant to apply both to the actual -Ace2- and the more colloquial "This mod is an Ace2 mod!" tag.
Having the -Ace2- tag was meaningful, insofar as it showed me (the user) where I could get updates for the mod, and maybe find some community discussion about it.
For that purpose, I think it would be more useful to stick a website entry in the toc.
For that purpose, I think it would be more useful to stick a website entry in the toc.
I'm not particularly interested in debating th merits of the -Ace2- tag, because it wasn't my point at all. In my mind, the function of the tag wasn't very meaningful in creating the dichotomy between 'Ace2' and 'non-Ace2' mods; however, it certainly played a hand in sustaining the dichotomy.
Let me extrapolate my point further. I'm probably damning myself in the eyes of many, but at this point I'm used to it. The concept of replacement serves a dual function - on the one hand it demeans the product to be replaced, and on the other it offers the 'salvation' to the problems of the other product. This begs the question - why do I need a replacement, and why should I replace it with an Ace2 mod?
There are two ways to answer the second part of that question. The first way is by saying that the Ace2 mod is just better than the other mod on-face (i.e. Pitbull's raid frames are better than ozRaid because they're not buggy as hell). The second way, and the way the community is most likely to answer that question, is because there is -something- about Ace2 that makes it more desireable on the user's end.
The general population is largely ignorant about coding. They'll make the assumption that there must be *something* about Ace2 that is better than everything else, and should try to replace all mods they can. There is proof of this phenomenon - when Violation came out I remember reading "Man, I'd been waiting forever for an Ace2 damage meter." And I probably read that 900 times. This thread from the German Wow-Europe forums serves to highlight my point further.
Of course there is animosity towards Ace. The WoW-community at large has set up an adversarial relationship between Ace and non-ace mods.
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Forum ModeratorIt seems to me your issue is with free-for-all commits on SVN rather than the -Ace2- tag? I see nothing wrong with the -Ace2- tag per se since the wowace.com admins by no means require any mods hosted here to carry that tag (right?). There's no requirement that to use svn.wowace.com and files.wowace.com, you must carry the -Ace2- tag, right? So it's entirely up to the author. Some authors I'm sure like the tag precisely because ignorant users flock to it thinking Ace2==good. Other authors like you think the Ace2 tag is offensive and choose not to include it. Your beef seems to be other developers comitting code to your project and sticking the tag in without your permission.
On the flip side, if a Dongle developer decides he wants to stick the -Dongle- tag on his mod, you have no problems with it, right? Just as long as nobody comes onto your Google SVN and sticks -Dongle- onto your mod.
Just a thought I had when reading the thread. :)
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Curse PremiumI think it really boils down to a matter of principal. Adding a -Anything- tag to your mod is just going to cause the (ignorant) end-users to care about something they shouldn't. NO ONE should tag their mods with the framework they choose to use. I'd personally like to see the current and future Ace2 mods start stripping the tags, I really wonder what the result would be...
Some people -- and, imho, people with security and meaning issues -- latch onto symbols as if holding onto those symbols makes them better, cooler, smarter, wiser, more special than they really are. It irks me to absolutely no end when people go off on how "Ace mods are better" *sigh* It's either ignorance or arrogance and it's hard to tell which. Ace provides a good framework on which to write a well-written mod but, heh, it doesn't mean your code isn't bovine scatology in a bottle.
The only reason I identify my mods with Ace is so that folks like myself will look at two comparable mods and be able to say "gee, I've got 15 Ace mods, this one might give me better performance" or "gee, I run no Ace mods, this one will be more bloated than needed" if nothing else in terms of features swayed them. Pretty much my thinking pattern any more since I've wound up running so many mods that are on the Ace framework. Otherwise, it'd just be an incidental note offering credit where it's due.
Identifying the framework is as necessary as identifying that your iPod only works with iTunes because that little bit of infrastructure is rather useful knowledge. When someone told me about Omen I though "big deal, another threat mod" then "it tracks threat per mob" and I was all ears (ktm killed me that damn much) but when it came to "it's an Ace mod" here's what came to mind: Oh, sweet, it'll prolly hook into SharedMediaLib so I'm not stuck with some stupid bar texture I can't read and sounds I can't stand so on this particular subject I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree. Ace, Dongle, TokenRing, Ethernet...sometimes the guts are relevant.
And, as a side bonus, you watch people get up in arms about about "ace=good" or "ace=bloatware vs dongle=good"...well, it lets you know who's speaking wisely and who's kinda fixated.
In this case sure, because Ace is too large to just "forget about" when you only have one Ace addon, but that's a problem specific to Ace at the moment.
Again, not an Ace thing. SharedMediaLib shoudln't even use Ace.. its stupid that it does. Any addon already can (and I'm sure do) hook into the library if users intend to use it.
The *only* reason stuff like this happens is because addons that have no need to be Ace, get Aced, and even worse, they don't get released to the general public. Sure, when you have a number of addons that are part of the "kool kids klub" you want to know what other ones are there.
Drastic differences in design decisions, that's all.
No, the problem is that it's only an Ace thing. Many Ace addons/authors use SharedMedia because most people in the Ace community know about it and it's a great library. The problem is that I don't think authors outside this site know that they have this powerful library available to them. Also, I think some nonAce authors are discouraged when they hear Ace being thrown around because Ace is a community and they are just one person. I believe we need to open the lines of communication and have this community spread out into other places to spread the wealth of knowledge (like the fact SharedMedia Exists) and creativity of this community.
Uhh, that's what I said.
yes, and I maintain that sharemedialibrary has no reason to be ace. It should use AceLibrary and nothign else, but *shrug*
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Curse PremiumPeople worry about performance far to much, it's something that authors should deal with if the user sees obvious performance issues then they should raise it with the author, but they should *never* think that it's better because you have 20 addons using Dongle or Ace. Even CPU numbers are inaccurate unless you know what you're doing, taking 0.5 seconds to cache something when you open the Auction House window is better then taking 0.55 seconds everytime you do something in the Auction House.
I don't think the -Ace2- tag is even remotely close to the problem. I think THIS is the problem.
You know, the original discussion about this -Ace2- / Not -Ace2- tag thingie came from cladhaire saying people were adding it to his addons without his approval, and addons which did not even use Ace2!
Anyway, you could just add "Uses Ace2" to the Notes field, or if you really, really want something in the title, then -Wowace- would probably be more explicit for addons that are only supported on wowace.com.
I realize that - the Ace2 tag was meant to apply both to the actual -Ace2- and the more colloquial "This mod is an Ace2 mod!" tag.
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Curse PremiumFor that purpose, I think it would be more useful to stick a website entry in the toc.
I'm not particularly interested in debating th merits of the -Ace2- tag, because it wasn't my point at all. In my mind, the function of the tag wasn't very meaningful in creating the dichotomy between 'Ace2' and 'non-Ace2' mods; however, it certainly played a hand in sustaining the dichotomy.
Let me extrapolate my point further. I'm probably damning myself in the eyes of many, but at this point I'm used to it. The concept of replacement serves a dual function - on the one hand it demeans the product to be replaced, and on the other it offers the 'salvation' to the problems of the other product. This begs the question - why do I need a replacement, and why should I replace it with an Ace2 mod?
There are two ways to answer the second part of that question. The first way is by saying that the Ace2 mod is just better than the other mod on-face (i.e. Pitbull's raid frames are better than ozRaid because they're not buggy as hell). The second way, and the way the community is most likely to answer that question, is because there is -something- about Ace2 that makes it more desireable on the user's end.
The general population is largely ignorant about coding. They'll make the assumption that there must be *something* about Ace2 that is better than everything else, and should try to replace all mods they can. There is proof of this phenomenon - when Violation came out I remember reading "Man, I'd been waiting forever for an Ace2 damage meter." And I probably read that 900 times. This thread from the German Wow-Europe forums serves to highlight my point further.
Of course there is animosity towards Ace. The WoW-community at large has set up an adversarial relationship between Ace and non-ace mods.