I'm sorry I find this silly. So why is it bad that the feature was introduced in a library when the actual functionality isn't contested?
For example the rangelib introduces the range functionality and many addons can use it to make it visible (say Pitbull can, or CowTip or your favorite HUD). The talent feature is introduced by RockComm but CowTip makes it visible but one could add it to a paperdoll, a friends list etc etc.
The advantage of it being in a library is clearly that many addons can benefit from the functionality and that a centralized point can disable it if people do not like the feature.
I'd actually argue that's very good and clean, in a sense it's clearly an advantage to separate functionality from the place it is being displayed or the context it then is used if the functionality is generic enough.
Let Blizzard add this to default tooltips so maybe then the discussion will end.
Let Blizzard add this to default tooltips so maybe then the discussion will end.
Well, THIS discussion (the one about RockComm) will be ended, anyway, if Blizzard really introduces those features. But discussions like this will always pop up when addons or libraries publish data that some people think is "private". Whether it really is or not.
I guess the main gripes people have with this feature are from a technical point of view ("it shouldn't be in a core library"), privacy point of view ("I don't want an addon to transmit personal data without an opt-in"), and resource point of view ("it takes bandwidth"). While as a user I leave the technical details to addon authors, and the bandwidth is not a concern for me, I do feel an opt-in should have been the right way to implement this from the start. And it's not that the information is really private, it's out in the open for anyone who spends 10 seconds to search the armory. But I feel uneasy about going down the path of transmitting personal information through a core library, without an opt-out (that was added later), because the possibilities are endless.
/applaud for clarity and impartiality
(emphasis added by me since I keep reading talents are readily available from other sources
which is not what some people take issue with)
Blizzard created the Armory website which is pretty much a glorified Character Paper Doll.
It is open to ALL characters who play the game (although there is a slight delay on updating if you just recently logged off).
The Armory also has other info such as Guilds, Arena, and other World of Warcraft like. The site is also used by people to check the validity of the "claims" of players and such.
The point is the World of Warcraft info is open to the public (who wants to look for it). :)
If a Lib/Framework/Addon want to make all or part of this publicly available info IN GAME, why shouldn't they make it available?
Sure, one of the points is that make it "toggle" type in the Lib/Framework/Addon. I guess that should be make available, but, can you "toggle" the info at the Armory Website? If you can, please let me and EVERYONE know so we can go in Armory and TOGGLE IT OFF!
Knowing a character's spec is really would just let you know what "role" can be best at. But, sometimes, that is really not the case either.
You can have a Warrior with all talents to Protection, but, you when grab them for the "tank" role, you see the guy in Battle or Berserker stance all the time and making the healer heal him more and such. Of course, you can kick him out right then and there since you have been deceived by the warriors talent spec.
On the other side, a Warrior could be Fury talents, but they can also tank. Much like a Paladin can be Retribution, but they can also heal.
There are 3 major roles in a group. Tank, Healer, DPS.
There are 3 types of Players. Leader, Team-player, "Don't tell me what to do".
There are 2 groups of Players. Elitists, Non-Elitists.
Now, I'll be waiting for an Lib/Framework/Addon that can tell me EXACTLY where a Character and his/her Player is at.
2 people just posted that on the last page. Go read the 2.3 patch notes. (lots of nice things coming, btw)
I must have missed it, I did see a post here I thought and assumed somehow that was speculation, then I went and read the patch notes and somehow missed it again. All this missing is due to me reading this stuff at work and alt+tabbing FAR too often.
The issue isn't the information it's sharing, it's how it's sharing it. From a core library, on by default.
yep FlareCDE! And that's EVIL!
fact is:
most users download addons with WAU (or so) from this site
most users never read changelogs
most users never read sourcecodes
dl. install. run.
Why not broadcast (by default!) any other ingame information about an account? WHY NOT?
Why not share gold, twinks/alts, played time or what-ever? WHY NOT?
Like sharing data? COOL: Why not publish real name, address, email, bank account information and all above on armory? WHY NOT? (valuable$sell.someday.EULA!)
Is this private data? uhhhhh... Imagine all the poossibilities for every ad company, for your employer, for your insurance or what ever - they would pay $ to get such data and connect it with other (online-)ad data...
:
The point is not the talents...hey I don't care about talent, gold or twinks/alts! The point is about broadcast data BY DEFAULT!!!
As a user I want to have control about data that is broadcasted!
well I don't use Rock libs...not now...I stick with old Pitbull, old Cartographer and other good old addons from ckknight (not up to date and less features - but hey they work very well! thx ckk), but the time will come and the versions I currently use take too much time for me to update or the newer ones has some nice features I want: I don't want to use core libs that send data by default - NO core lib here should do that!
addon/lib from ckknight? suspicious! better check code!
such a 'feature' in a core addon(lib) is counterproductive
for me it's about trust/credibility!
your
secret service (is watching you) (my second name is paranoia and drama ... sorry) :)
As a user I want to have control about data that is broadcasted!
The fact that something is done by default has nothing to do with whether you have control over it. You can control the data broadcast in RockComm; there is a checkbox to disable sending talent info. That checkbox is unchecked by default, but you still have control over it.
If your argument is that sending by default violates users' privacy because they are not aware of the option to disable it, then there are two flaws in your logic:
The information being sent is not private to begin with.
Your personal decision not to use Rock addons doesn't "protect" other users.
There are two kinds of users: users who care about their addons and users who just want what works. The former group knows how to open an options dialog and tweak things to their liking. The latter may not, but they also don't care about the broadcasts. When "average users" (people outside of the WowAce community who don't know the details of the Rock drama) are informed of the talent broadcasting, their responses are almost universally positive. Everyone thinks it's a good idea, and nobody even thinks of it as being a privacy violation. The privacy argument carried on around here is a purely theoretical one, and does not hold up in practice.
...You can control the data broadcast in RockComm; there is a checkbox to disable sending talent info. That checkbox is unchecked by default, but you still have control over it...
You can control it though, right? Thats what you want, isn't it? Control over what you broadcast. Which you have with RockComm, you have the control. Why does the default matter? Like Ellipsis said, the users that care about data being sent, know how to open the options and turn it off.
You can control it though, right? Thats what you want, isn't it? Control over what you broadcast. Which you have with RockComm, you have the control. Why does the default matter? Like Ellipsis said, the users that care about data being sent, know how to open the options and turn it off.
I think since the configuration window of Rock has had a complete overhaul and is finally bearable to them they just needed something else to whine about.
If you don't like the feature sending your information; turn it off.
If the information being sent is really bogging your system down (I highly doubt you even notice it at all anyways) you're going to check up on what's eating so much resources and then investigate why which would lead you to this thread and you would learn how to shut it off.
But seriously, if this small bit of information is really killing your system I think you need to spend less time here and more time at work so you can upgrade your Tandy.
You can control it though, right? Thats what you want, isn't it? Control over what you broadcast. Which you have with RockComm, you have the control. Why does the default matter?
In the case we're looking at, having the functionality enabled by default is equivalent to sending that user's information without their consent, since a good bit of users are not going to be aware that their, say map addon, is sending information about them to other people.
It really does not matter that the information is/will be publicly available. Sneaking functionality into addons that sends information about users to others is a bad thing.
I still don't get the argument. OK so this functionality has modulo some difference prefigured the inspect change that Blizz implements for 2.3. Even before that the information, even in much more detail was public via Armory.
If this was information that wasn't actually accessible to anybody I'd see the point. But this isn't the case. So frankly I don't understand this "principled" outrage when it in essence just provides a different way for an existing functionality.
Aren't all those addons that monitor your actions (CC breaker stat in recount, or BigBrother type things, or what CTRA did for 3 years) or custom unit frames showing that you are AFK even though you are not nearby so people can see your overhead label?
Seriously I don't get this... and I'm all for privacy. But the nonsequitur here is that there was no privacy to being with, given armory.
Clearly this isn't a feature that secretly and unbeknownst broadcasts your whispers to third parties or such or something such similar, which would be an actual violation of privacy...
And the second part... awareness... tragically I'd argue that many addon users are not aware what the addon does hence they don't fully consent to all functionality. A thought experiment: Poll people about their damage mater choice and ask them if they sync or not. I'd be surprised if the majority of dmgmeter-type addon users gets this right. I'd also wager that the majority doesn't care. And those that do can disable this... and same does count in this situation.
But again the main point is that the info that is being send here is public to begin with. Players have lost the privacy of this with the introduction of armory, not with the introduction of this feature. So say someone writes an addon that before wow launch farms armory for all specs and makes it available in-game. Perfectly doable. This would have _more_ functionality than what RockComm does and would have 0 "turn off" capacity by others. But the privacy impact of that addon would be the same? Why? Armory is public.
I am really dumbfounded why there is ongoing discussion, given that it is such an obvious nonsequitur.
The addons you've listed either rely on an opt in system (CTRA), or are just merely presenting information that's directly available by the game's API (Recount, BigBrother, etc). This is not the case with the talent sending functionality embedded in RockComm.
But again the main point is that the info that is being send here is public to begin with. Players have lost the privacy of this with the introduction of armory, not with the introduction of this feature. So say someone writes an addon that before wow launch farms armory for all specs and makes it available in-game. Perfectly doable. This would have _more_ functionality than what RockComm does and would have 0 "turn off" capacity by others. But the privacy impact of that addon would be the same? Why? Armory is public.
It is not what information is being sent, but how it is being sent. I hate to draw the parallel since it is so extreme, but RockComm is operating in a similar manner to spyware.
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For example the rangelib introduces the range functionality and many addons can use it to make it visible (say Pitbull can, or CowTip or your favorite HUD). The talent feature is introduced by RockComm but CowTip makes it visible but one could add it to a paperdoll, a friends list etc etc.
The advantage of it being in a library is clearly that many addons can benefit from the functionality and that a centralized point can disable it if people do not like the feature.
I'd actually argue that's very good and clean, in a sense it's clearly an advantage to separate functionality from the place it is being displayed or the context it then is used if the functionality is generic enough.
Let Blizzard add this to default tooltips so maybe then the discussion will end.
/applaud for clarity and impartiality
(emphasis added by me since I keep reading talents are readily available from other sources
which is not what some people take issue with)
it is?
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Curse Premium2 people just posted that on the last page. Go read the 2.3 patch notes. (lots of nice things coming, btw)
It is open to ALL characters who play the game (although there is a slight delay on updating if you just recently logged off).
The Armory also has other info such as Guilds, Arena, and other World of Warcraft like. The site is also used by people to check the validity of the "claims" of players and such.
The point is the World of Warcraft info is open to the public (who wants to look for it). :)
If a Lib/Framework/Addon want to make all or part of this publicly available info IN GAME, why shouldn't they make it available?
Sure, one of the points is that make it "toggle" type in the Lib/Framework/Addon. I guess that should be make available, but, can you "toggle" the info at the Armory Website? If you can, please let me and EVERYONE know so we can go in Armory and TOGGLE IT OFF!
Knowing a character's spec is really would just let you know what "role" can be best at. But, sometimes, that is really not the case either.
You can have a Warrior with all talents to Protection, but, you when grab them for the "tank" role, you see the guy in Battle or Berserker stance all the time and making the healer heal him more and such. Of course, you can kick him out right then and there since you have been deceived by the warriors talent spec.
On the other side, a Warrior could be Fury talents, but they can also tank. Much like a Paladin can be Retribution, but they can also heal.
There are 3 major roles in a group. Tank, Healer, DPS.
There are 3 types of Players. Leader, Team-player, "Don't tell me what to do".
There are 2 groups of Players. Elitists, Non-Elitists.
Now, I'll be waiting for an Lib/Framework/Addon that can tell me EXACTLY where a Character and his/her Player is at.
I must have missed it, I did see a post here I thought and assumed somehow that was speculation, then I went and read the patch notes and somehow missed it again. All this missing is due to me reading this stuff at work and alt+tabbing FAR too often.
Thank you for the confirmation.
yep FlareCDE! And that's EVIL!
fact is:
most users download addons with WAU (or so) from this site
most users never read changelogs
most users never read sourcecodes
dl. install. run.
Why not broadcast (by default!) any other ingame information about an account? WHY NOT?
Why not share gold, twinks/alts, played time or what-ever? WHY NOT?
Like sharing data? COOL: Why not publish real name, address, email, bank account information and all above on armory? WHY NOT? (valuable$sell.someday.EULA!)
Is this private data? uhhhhh... Imagine all the poossibilities for every ad company, for your employer, for your insurance or what ever - they would pay $ to get such data and connect it with other (online-)ad data...
:
The point is not the talents...hey I don't care about talent, gold or twinks/alts! The point is about broadcast data BY DEFAULT!!!
As a user I want to have control about data that is broadcasted!
well I don't use Rock libs...not now...I stick with old Pitbull, old Cartographer and other good old addons from ckknight (not up to date and less features - but hey they work very well! thx ckk), but the time will come and the versions I currently use take too much time for me to update or the newer ones has some nice features I want: I don't want to use core libs that send data by default - NO core lib here should do that!
addon/lib from ckknight? suspicious! better check code!
such a 'feature' in a core addon(lib) is counterproductive
for me it's about trust/credibility!
your
secret service (is watching you)
(my second name is paranoia and drama ... sorry) :)
The fact that something is done by default has nothing to do with whether you have control over it. You can control the data broadcast in RockComm; there is a checkbox to disable sending talent info. That checkbox is unchecked by default, but you still have control over it.
If your argument is that sending by default violates users' privacy because they are not aware of the option to disable it, then there are two flaws in your logic:
There are two kinds of users: users who care about their addons and users who just want what works. The former group knows how to open an options dialog and tweak things to their liking. The latter may not, but they also don't care about the broadcasts. When "average users" (people outside of the WowAce community who don't know the details of the Rock drama) are informed of the talent broadcasting, their responses are almost universally positive. Everyone thinks it's a good idea, and nobody even thinks of it as being a privacy violation. The privacy argument carried on around here is a purely theoretical one, and does not hold up in practice.
Enabled by Default, right?
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Curse PremiumYou can control it though, right? Thats what you want, isn't it? Control over what you broadcast. Which you have with RockComm, you have the control. Why does the default matter? Like Ellipsis said, the users that care about data being sent, know how to open the options and turn it off.
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Curse Premium/agree
If you don't like the feature sending your information; turn it off.
If the information being sent is really bogging your system down (I highly doubt you even notice it at all anyways) you're going to check up on what's eating so much resources and then investigate why which would lead you to this thread and you would learn how to shut it off.
But seriously, if this small bit of information is really killing your system I think you need to spend less time here and more time at work so you can upgrade your Tandy.
"...know how to open the options and turn it off."
And knowing is half the battle. :)
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Curse PremiumThe more you know, the more you grow.
G.I. Joe!!
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Curse PremiumIn the case we're looking at, having the functionality enabled by default is equivalent to sending that user's information without their consent, since a good bit of users are not going to be aware that their, say map addon, is sending information about them to other people.
It really does not matter that the information is/will be publicly available. Sneaking functionality into addons that sends information about users to others is a bad thing.
If this was information that wasn't actually accessible to anybody I'd see the point. But this isn't the case. So frankly I don't understand this "principled" outrage when it in essence just provides a different way for an existing functionality.
Aren't all those addons that monitor your actions (CC breaker stat in recount, or BigBrother type things, or what CTRA did for 3 years) or custom unit frames showing that you are AFK even though you are not nearby so people can see your overhead label?
Seriously I don't get this... and I'm all for privacy. But the nonsequitur here is that there was no privacy to being with, given armory.
Clearly this isn't a feature that secretly and unbeknownst broadcasts your whispers to third parties or such or something such similar, which would be an actual violation of privacy...
And the second part... awareness... tragically I'd argue that many addon users are not aware what the addon does hence they don't fully consent to all functionality. A thought experiment: Poll people about their damage mater choice and ask them if they sync or not. I'd be surprised if the majority of dmgmeter-type addon users gets this right. I'd also wager that the majority doesn't care. And those that do can disable this... and same does count in this situation.
But again the main point is that the info that is being send here is public to begin with. Players have lost the privacy of this with the introduction of armory, not with the introduction of this feature. So say someone writes an addon that before wow launch farms armory for all specs and makes it available in-game. Perfectly doable. This would have _more_ functionality than what RockComm does and would have 0 "turn off" capacity by others. But the privacy impact of that addon would be the same? Why? Armory is public.
I am really dumbfounded why there is ongoing discussion, given that it is such an obvious nonsequitur.
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Curse PremiumIt is not what information is being sent, but how it is being sent. I hate to draw the parallel since it is so extreme, but RockComm is operating in a similar manner to spyware.