EDIT: Why on earth would you think that making the accusation you did, without any basis whatsoever is "okay"? I had absolutely 0 issues with the discussion you were participating in, until you made things personal, stepping over the line.
Since I was threatened with being banned, I don't see how I can comment anymore on this. Feel free to throw me a PM though.
EDIT: Why on earth would you think that making the accusation you did, without any basis whatsoever is "okay"? I had absolutely 0 issues with the discussion you were participating in, until you made things personal, stepping over the line.
Since I was threatened with being banned, I don't see how I can comment anymore on this. Feel free to throw me a PM though.
It never should have been said in the first place, so there's nothing more to comment on. Thats not my opinion, that's the way these forums are run. If you'd like to return to constructive discussion without flinging your personal opinion and criticism of others as fact, feel free. I've said my piece, if you feel you have more to say, you send me a PM or an email. You know how I can be contacted.
To clarify, if its not clear what line you crossed, and why you were warned by two admins, I can clarify for you. I'm hoping that's unnecessary. No one here was threatened.
Bam, to put it bluntly, your posts over the last few day have, for the most part, not been constructive and mostly just flamebait. In fact many are down right direct attacks. Last time I remember someone's comments being considered "unconstructive" he lost his opps on IRC *cough* Be happy you're at least getting a warning.
I will make note that, though I lost IRC back then, I do still have powers in the forum and the wiki (and Kael knows I do). I've resisted the urge to just ban you many times already, I feel that someone not directly involved in the conversation should do that, or if every admin is involved, Kael should.
The thing I find really odd about this is that while you keep piping in and complaining about the framework and the people that have "come back" for Ace3... I only see one addon and one library to your name. I'm not trying to say you don't have a say in the project, we certainly welcome constructive criticism, but for the most part all I've heard from you is negativity over the future of a framework you barely even use!
I guess other people warning you got the message across, and I'm glad it did. I didn't want to be the one to do that, cause it'd just sound like a knee-jerk defensive reaction from me at this point in time.
To *maybe* change the subject slightly... all the rock vs Ace3 crap here... I'm honestly interested in who's planning on using which, and their reasons why (not their reasons why they won't use the other, I want "pros" here, not politics). Maybe both sides can learn a little bit of what the devs that use the frameworks want?
Bam, to put it bluntly, your posts over the last few day have, for the most part, not been constructive and mostly just flamebait. In fact many are down right direct attacks. Last time I remember someone's comments being considered "unconstructive" he lost his opps on IRC *cough* Be happy you're at least getting a warning.
I will make note that, though I lost IRC back then, I do still have powers in the forum and the wiki (and Kael knows I do). I've resisted the urge to just ban you many times already, I feel that someone not directly involved in the conversation should do that, or if every admin is involved, Kael should.
The thing I find really odd about this is that while you keep piping in and complaining about the framework and the people that have "come back" for Ace3... I only see one addon and one library to your name. I'm not trying to say you don't have a say in the project, we certainly welcome constructive criticism, but for the most part all I've heard from you is negativity over the future of a framework you barely even use!
I guess other people warning you got the message across, and I'm glad it did. I didn't want to be the one to do that, cause it'd just sound like a knee-jerk defensive reaction from me at this point in time.
To *maybe* change the subject slightly... all the rock vs Ace3 crap here... I'm honestly interested in who's planning on using which, and their reasons why (not their reasons why they won't use the other, I want "pros" here, not politics). Maybe both sides can learn a little bit of what the devs that use the frameworks want?
I quoted you Tek, but really this isn't a response to you.
I acutally just wanted to say, my fears about 'duplicated' code with having 2 frameworks are gone, and I"m very excited about the possiblity of newer and better addon's being developed for both frameworks. I'm sure some nice, lean, clean and efficient mods will be coming out soon. If I can mostly keep getting my stuff via WAU, I'm gonna be solidly in the 'I don't care what its written with' camp. I'm truly a convert to the 'why should I care which framework its on' idealogy.
Assuming good addons come out from both frameworks of course.
This may not be the case, but I get the feeling that Rock is probably great at handling 'big' mods like pitbull, or big wigs [seems big] or maybe like Ark Inventory, Because it provides 'more' features built into the core framework.
But that means that a smaller mod, say... like OmniCC, would totally be wasted developing as 'Rock' because of the needed overhead from the framework to load such a tiny mod. If a person where to just get OmniCC with vanilla wow UI, they'd have a very unneccesary amount of addon loaded. This is where Ace3 will excel. Thats not to say that Ace3 won't be good for a Pitbull type mod, but it seems like the smaller abstraction layer, means slightly steeper learning curve for Ace3 and a dev may prefer to build in a Rock enviroment?
Anyways, thats theorycrafting trying to understand whats going on with these frameworks.
Everyone is trying to work to make something better. I think thats good to remember. Whether or not 1 person agrees with another on what is 'best' everyone is working to make things better.
There really shouldn't be such animosity, for what has to be hobbies for all of you.
It's not :) The core framework is rather simple, unless they went apeshit on it after I was done. Bigwigs is mostly a lot of "data" modules... simple little addons for each boss that fire off the bars, texts and sync messages. Now, all the specialized plugins for specific bosses, like say the Thad arrows... yea all together it's a big package. But, for the most part, it's not really big on code, just big on boss-specific use of the core.
Quote from Aestil »
There really shouldn't be such animosity, for what has to be hobbies for all of you.
If you had not noticed, all the drama really has not centered around ckk at all. We have our issues with him, and he with us, but all in all we tend to have an amicable peace if you will. It's like Ally vs. Horde... there's history and "bad blood", but they have no real reason to fight. But there are some subfactions that go at in the BGs... in that respect it's the ckk fanbois vs the ace diehards. And, just like PvP, the fighting is completely useless and just one big dick measuring contest.
I'm honestly interested in who's planning on using which, and their reasons why (not their reasons why they won't use the other, I want "pros" here, not politics). Maybe both sides can learn a little bit of what the devs that use the frameworks want?
I have yet to look at Rock. I liked what I saw from Ace3 alpha very much.
Lets get back to what people are heading towards using and why...
So we can assume ckk's addon's will use Rock:
Pitbull, CowTip, Parrot, ckk's 50 other libraries and addon's (does ckk have a life srsly!)
What will BigWigs use? Are we likely to see BigWigs-Rock & BigWigs-Ace3 if the primary developers disagree on the framework choice? What will Bartender3, FuBar, Grid, Omen be using?
The addon's I mention above are hugely popular, I think it will be fascinating to see how it pan's out and if we do see stuff like Fubar-Rock & FubBar-Ace3 turn up it will be great. I for one look forward to trying both and trying to compare the performance (with wow's limited tools).
I think the competition will be quite healthy and result in better mods overall.
I think it would be quite interesting to see the top 20 addons (addons not libraries) by download # from the svn and what framework they intend to use, hell even if they intend to stay as ace2 it would be useful to know.
Bam, to put it bluntly, your posts over the last few day have, for the most part, not been constructive and mostly just flamebait. In fact many are down right direct attacks. Last time I remember someone's comments being considered "unconstructive" he lost his opps on IRC *cough* Be happy you're at least getting a warning.
I will make note that, though I lost IRC back then, I do still have powers in the forum and the wiki (and Kael knows I do). I've resisted the urge to just ban you many times already, I feel that someone not directly involved in the conversation should do that, or if every admin is involved, Kael should.
I'm sure you will use your powers as you see fit, Tekkub. As for my comment above, I do agree that it was over the top. I did send my apology to Cladhaire for it. Though, I wasn't planning to post it here and further divert the thread.
Apart from that I believe I both have made constructive comments and I plan to do so in the future. Yes, I've used some harsh language at times - often when discussing with you, Tekkub. You aren't entirely innocent of that either. And it would be better if none of us did that.
Quote from tekkub »
The thing I find really odd about this is that while you keep piping in and complaining about the framework and the people that have "come back" for Ace3... I only see one addon and one library to your name. I'm not trying to say you don't have a say in the project, we certainly welcome constructive criticism, but for the most part all I've heard from you is negativity over the future of a framework you barely even use!
Why it matters how many addons and libraries I have contributed, I don't know. I sure hope you will listen to anybody who has something to say - even if they have released zero addons or libraries using any framework.
Quote from tekkub »
To *maybe* change the subject slightly... all the rock vs Ace3 crap here... I'm honestly interested in who's planning on using which, and their reasons why (not their reasons why they won't use the other, I want "pros" here, not politics). Maybe both sides can learn a little bit of what the devs that use the frameworks want?
You might be surprised to hear that I do find Ace3 interesting and I hope it will deliver. I still find it most important that a framework has a broad support from developers. Wether logical or not, just the fact that it will be named Ace3 will attract many developers I think. I am hoping to see pretty much the same features as exist today in Ace2. Perhaps it will be distributed (or packed or updated) differently. And I hope for an abundance of libraries supporting every conceivable aspect of addon development - over time of course, and not necessarily in the "core".
Unlike some others I do not believe that competition among frameworks is a benefit at all.
BigWigs will stay Ace2, when Ace3 is finished me/rabbit/ammo will do the usual positive/negative and see whether its good for Ace3, it will not be Rock.
Competition is not better for the developer no, because they have to spend more time and effort deciding what to use and so on... but competition and more options are always better for the user.
Competition is not better for the developer no, because they have to spend more time and effort deciding what to use and so on... but competition and more options are always better for the user.
I wouldn't care if an addon is made with Ace3/Dongle/Rock/Whatevercoolframeworkthatrocksandsoundscool, i only need that it does what i need without causing a performance impact. So... what's the point of a virtual competition between frameworks if an author still sucks at coding?
It's only better for the user if it helps to promote diversity and competition, as those generally lead to better products. Since these addons are [mostly] created by people in their spare time and not for monetary reasons, there's little motivation to inspire such diversity or competition. And user ignorance will still exist, only now it'll be three times as confusing to the uninitiated.
In the end, you'll probably end up using a bunch of mods written using all three frameworks, each using their own libraries to do the same thing. You probably won't notice a difference, but I definitely wouldn't say the user is going to be better off.
The thing I find really odd about this is that while you keep piping in and complaining about the framework and the people that have "come back" for Ace3... I only see one addon and one library to your name. I'm not trying to say you don't have a say in the project, we certainly welcome constructive criticism, but for the most part all I've heard from you is negativity over the future of a framework you barely even use!
The number of addons someone chooses to release for public consumption should have no bearing on whether or not their opinion should be considered. I know that's not what you mean per say but it's a fine line. Myself, I've written 8+ addons some use Dongle, some no framework at all and a couple are Fubar plugins which by default makes them Ace. I write them for myself and my guild to use and generally don't get involved with many of these discussion.
I'm very interested in Ace3 and might even write my future addons using it. At this point I'm sticking with Dongle though but will be keeping an eye on Ace3.
I'm very interested in Ace3 and might even write my future addons using it. At this point I'm sticking with Dongle though but will be keeping an eye on Ace3.
Since I was threatened with being banned, I don't see how I can comment anymore on this. Feel free to throw me a PM though.
It never should have been said in the first place, so there's nothing more to comment on. Thats not my opinion, that's the way these forums are run. If you'd like to return to constructive discussion without flinging your personal opinion and criticism of others as fact, feel free. I've said my piece, if you feel you have more to say, you send me a PM or an email. You know how I can be contacted.
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Forum ModeratorIndeed.
I will make note that, though I lost IRC back then, I do still have powers in the forum and the wiki (and Kael knows I do). I've resisted the urge to just ban you many times already, I feel that someone not directly involved in the conversation should do that, or if every admin is involved, Kael should.
The thing I find really odd about this is that while you keep piping in and complaining about the framework and the people that have "come back" for Ace3... I only see one addon and one library to your name. I'm not trying to say you don't have a say in the project, we certainly welcome constructive criticism, but for the most part all I've heard from you is negativity over the future of a framework you barely even use!
I guess other people warning you got the message across, and I'm glad it did. I didn't want to be the one to do that, cause it'd just sound like a knee-jerk defensive reaction from me at this point in time.
To *maybe* change the subject slightly... all the rock vs Ace3 crap here... I'm honestly interested in who's planning on using which, and their reasons why (not their reasons why they won't use the other, I want "pros" here, not politics). Maybe both sides can learn a little bit of what the devs that use the frameworks want?
I quoted you Tek, but really this isn't a response to you.
I acutally just wanted to say, my fears about 'duplicated' code with having 2 frameworks are gone, and I"m very excited about the possiblity of newer and better addon's being developed for both frameworks. I'm sure some nice, lean, clean and efficient mods will be coming out soon. If I can mostly keep getting my stuff via WAU, I'm gonna be solidly in the 'I don't care what its written with' camp. I'm truly a convert to the 'why should I care which framework its on' idealogy.
Assuming good addons come out from both frameworks of course.
This may not be the case, but I get the feeling that Rock is probably great at handling 'big' mods like pitbull, or big wigs [seems big] or maybe like Ark Inventory, Because it provides 'more' features built into the core framework.
But that means that a smaller mod, say... like OmniCC, would totally be wasted developing as 'Rock' because of the needed overhead from the framework to load such a tiny mod. If a person where to just get OmniCC with vanilla wow UI, they'd have a very unneccesary amount of addon loaded. This is where Ace3 will excel. Thats not to say that Ace3 won't be good for a Pitbull type mod, but it seems like the smaller abstraction layer, means slightly steeper learning curve for Ace3 and a dev may prefer to build in a Rock enviroment?
Anyways, thats theorycrafting trying to understand whats going on with these frameworks.
Everyone is trying to work to make something better. I think thats good to remember. Whether or not 1 person agrees with another on what is 'best' everyone is working to make things better.
There really shouldn't be such animosity, for what has to be hobbies for all of you.
It's not :) The core framework is rather simple, unless they went apeshit on it after I was done. Bigwigs is mostly a lot of "data" modules... simple little addons for each boss that fire off the bars, texts and sync messages. Now, all the specialized plugins for specific bosses, like say the Thad arrows... yea all together it's a big package. But, for the most part, it's not really big on code, just big on boss-specific use of the core.
If you had not noticed, all the drama really has not centered around ckk at all. We have our issues with him, and he with us, but all in all we tend to have an amicable peace if you will. It's like Ally vs. Horde... there's history and "bad blood", but they have no real reason to fight. But there are some subfactions that go at in the BGs... in that respect it's the ckk fanbois vs the ace diehards. And, just like PvP, the fighting is completely useless and just one big dick measuring contest.
I have yet to look at Rock. I liked what I saw from Ace3 alpha very much.
So we can assume ckk's addon's will use Rock:
Pitbull, CowTip, Parrot, ckk's 50 other libraries and addon's (does ckk have a life srsly!)
What will BigWigs use? Are we likely to see BigWigs-Rock & BigWigs-Ace3 if the primary developers disagree on the framework choice? What will Bartender3, FuBar, Grid, Omen be using?
The addon's I mention above are hugely popular, I think it will be fascinating to see how it pan's out and if we do see stuff like Fubar-Rock & FubBar-Ace3 turn up it will be great. I for one look forward to trying both and trying to compare the performance (with wow's limited tools).
I think the competition will be quite healthy and result in better mods overall.
I think it would be quite interesting to see the top 20 addons (addons not libraries) by download # from the svn and what framework they intend to use, hell even if they intend to stay as ace2 it would be useful to know.
I'm sure you will use your powers as you see fit, Tekkub. As for my comment above, I do agree that it was over the top. I did send my apology to Cladhaire for it. Though, I wasn't planning to post it here and further divert the thread.
Apart from that I believe I both have made constructive comments and I plan to do so in the future. Yes, I've used some harsh language at times - often when discussing with you, Tekkub. You aren't entirely innocent of that either. And it would be better if none of us did that.
Why it matters how many addons and libraries I have contributed, I don't know. I sure hope you will listen to anybody who has something to say - even if they have released zero addons or libraries using any framework.
You might be surprised to hear that I do find Ace3 interesting and I hope it will deliver. I still find it most important that a framework has a broad support from developers. Wether logical or not, just the fact that it will be named Ace3 will attract many developers I think. I am hoping to see pretty much the same features as exist today in Ace2. Perhaps it will be distributed (or packed or updated) differently. And I hope for an abundance of libraries supporting every conceivable aspect of addon development - over time of course, and not necessarily in the "core".
Unlike some others I do not believe that competition among frameworks is a benefit at all.
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Forum ModeratorI wouldn't care if an addon is made with Ace3/Dongle/Rock/Whatevercoolframeworkthatrocksandsoundscool, i only need that it does what i need without causing a performance impact. So... what's the point of a virtual competition between frameworks if an author still sucks at coding?
In the end, you'll probably end up using a bunch of mods written using all three frameworks, each using their own libraries to do the same thing. You probably won't notice a difference, but I definitely wouldn't say the user is going to be better off.
The number of addons someone chooses to release for public consumption should have no bearing on whether or not their opinion should be considered. I know that's not what you mean per say but it's a fine line. Myself, I've written 8+ addons some use Dongle, some no framework at all and a couple are Fubar plugins which by default makes them Ace. I write them for myself and my guild to use and generally don't get involved with many of these discussion.
I'm very interested in Ace3 and might even write my future addons using it. At this point I'm sticking with Dongle though but will be keeping an eye on Ace3.
Lol, people use Dongle? =) Suckers!