Kaelten, I completely agree with you. See I never said everybody is welcome. I said I hope friendly, well-meaning users are.
People who flame, exploit and plain don't care about how their actions impact others don't belong into that category.
My initial gripe was that random people called for vigilanti justice (flaming) to themselves decide who isn't welcome, and that I objected too... because I see that as counter productive to the community.
That you and proper moderation overall is the way to go is what I wanted all along.
Re: Ace. Well Ace is a brand, a lib, a community, etc. Clearly it's a positive brand. While I agree that part of the positive brand are misconceptions I for one don't think there is a major issue with it. If an addon had an -Ace2- label but didn't work properly, or didn't work at all, it wouldn't be used. A positive brand only goes so far. But yeah there are addons that can be written more concisely without any libs. But, and I think this is where I differ with some people on the issue, very often it plainly doesn't matter from a user's perspective (or in fact it does in other way). One is performance. I continue to be amazed how much stuff one can do with WoW API lua code before there is a performance issue. For a lot of users, this is what matters: What does it do on the surface and do I perceive a problem? If the answer is no, the guts don't matter, and that makes a lot of sense to me (while I can see that this may be hard to swallow for an author who spent time writing very compact and elegant code, because the user who thinks that way neglects the appreciation for the difference).
But there is more to this. Ace also stands for a community. People have learned that addons here are well supported. I do remember the 2.0.x transition where many many Ace based addons and addons written by people who hang around in this community were up and running while their non-Ace popular counterparts were scrambling or even died completely. This isn't a direct measure of quality of code, but quality of community. In fact I'm sure a lot of people don't even know which of the addons they use really do use any Ace libs. I don't think that a lot of users make a deep distinction between the code and the community that supports it. And that isn't complete lunacy. By there being an active and vibrant community with a lot of domain knowledge, there is a better chance of quality stuff happening.
Now I totally agree that the Ace label doesn't guarantee the best-written addon, and we can name some good examples, but by always emphasising this when people come and talk positively about Ace, even if ill-informed I think we short-change a lot of the above reasons that ultimately are positive and not at all damaged by the fact that not everybody understands all nuance. I for one would be much more bothered if lots of people due to lack of information felt poorly about Ace as both a lib set and a community.
Finally even for the informed, the question when to use a lib or not is part opinion and in the eye of the respective beholders. But that there is lots of discussion about this is certainly a great part of this community. And so we end up with multiple addons doing similar things, which in my mind is nothing but great, because there is more of a chance that you find something that matches your preferences and preconceptions.
In all honesty, that second group of users never belonged on wowace in the first place. It was never ever meant as a release site, and wasn't built that way.
My understanding is that you say that people who feel that addons are distributed here and come here with that understanding are not welcome here. If I misunderstood I'd be happy to hear what you meant. But again, we can take that offline if that's a more productive way of clarifying this.
I for one welcome any users, also those that come here for release addons. Am I entitled to that view or will I be shouted down and harrassed over that? You worded it as truism. I took issue with it. If that's a matter of wording we surely can get beyond it.
Seerah, I didn't mean to take your comments out of context at all, sorry if it can be read that way. We can talk the discussion offline if you want or let it be right here.
But I think I have been clear. I have no issue with anybody holding an opinion, whether it's that wowace ought to not be doing releases at all (a point that indy has argued forcefully in the past) or that some people should be flamed. I hold issue with the hostility and that it's expressed to hold for all of us, and that dissenters have to brace for some flaming or troll baiting.
I use wowace among many things as distribution site and welcome any well-mannered poster independent of their preconceptions. Anybody is fine to disagree with that, but just drop the hostility please.
For me there really is only one issue I feel strongly about in this discussion: Getting hostile on anybody isn't OK.
When the whole getting rid of "normal" users, they don't belong (seerah) mean dwagons eat "normal" users (tek) and flame certain types of users (arrow) came up, that's when I spoke. Also because in my view in the past people who simply didn't deserve harsh treatments did get some. Even devs! (folks getting hackled for not liking to be on IRC or for not providing valid emails in their TOCs, or for having a different opinion what warrants a library, just to name a few)
That - is my only gripe with the wowace community and I've been speaking up about it whenever I felt things were going wrong, or trying other paths to point out what I observed as happening.
If I read Nev and Kaelten correctly then the policy is clear: hostility such as flaming is not OK.
Great. That's all I was hoping to get out of the discussion. I couldn't be happier if I never had to verbalize my discontent about this again.
In my mind everybody is entitled to their opinion, but noone is entitled to be nasty or controlling about it.
If a user is entitlement-crazed I have all sympathy that there is an issue, same for a dev who feels that her particular views on <blank> must be accepted as truism by everybody and dissent is subject to flames or ridicule, then that's also an issue.
If something goes pear shaped there are good and productive ways to handle them. Ignoring, reporting, or just being able to agree to disagree are among those that work.
I can remember maybe 1-2 posts total in the Recount thread that I couldn't find some productive way to respond to. The fast majority of user feedback I am getting is productive. The signal to noise ratio is excellent overall and the omgz-some-users-panick is hardly a deep issue, at least in my realm of interaction.
The only thing that repeatedly saddens me in this community how perfectly fine people can end up getting the rough stick just because a few select vocal folks find that a good way to treat people. It's not really, so please if you disagree, have a dissenting opinion, have a view how you'd like things. Let others have the same. Cheers.
Just to make it clear, I for one have no problem with wowace also distributing addons (heck release flagged addons show on wowace!), and I have no problem with a user coming here with that understanding. That in no way per se reflects poorly on the user. When a user starts running rampart like that one guy who harrassed Sylv excessively over WAU and went on with sourceforge crap etc, then it's a different matter. Go report and let admins handle it.
But apparently a select few have decided for all of us what wowace is, namely one where some users should expect to be harrassed, even if their only fault is to not be warned of that specific mind-set. Yikes.
Users are fine to be "untrained", they are people. If you can't treat them that way frankly I rather have you go than that "untrained" but otherwise innocent user.
You are entitled to want no distribution related posts here, you are not entitled to force that view on everybody and create a hostile environment that we all have to take, in my rather humble opinion.
I'm hopeful that admins will step in and stop people from being harrassed and flamed. On that note, is there a report feature on the new forum?
Not all authors are dragons, some are sloths, pandas or those little puppy dog that are highly irritated and bark a lot but don't really contribute much.
The puppy dogs seem to have inflated egos. Maybe they think they are dragons?
I'm happy to hear from users of any kind, as long as you are polite and not entitlement-crazed.
I'm also happy to hear from devs of any kind, who are polite and not entitlement-crazed and don't do the irritated puppy barking at unsuspecting users ;)
Who ever wrote down who is not welcome here and when will this silliness of barking go away? Dwagons are nice creatures... some of them ;)
For me, just per chance I always used curse for release and wowace for alpha/beta/gamma and hadron collisions. I can't say why, it's just so happened. So in a sense the transitions may end up making my life a tad easier.
As for the rest, I guess it's going to be the same. People make the community and some of us like to be exclusive about some schtuff (bark, bark), while some others like to be inclusive (barking at barkers)... but that's people not forums or net traffic.
Overall I've always been very grateful for Kaelten and the whole array of others that help enable the community (I'd also mention Nev who's been going out of his way to transition Recount related project in graceful ways), so that we can bark at each other on top of it. Kudos and thanks for the hard work.